News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« on: September 21, 2003, 08:48:38 AM »
As Mark Fine mentioned in another thread some of us from here went out to the first William S. Flynn Invitational at the Glen View G.C. in Chicago on Thursday and Friday. There is another Flynn Invitational but it only includes the Flynn courses in and around Philadelphia.

The William S. Flynn Invitational at Glen View was the inaugural one that might take in the other Flynn courses from around the country. This one was represented by members from Philly C.C, Rolling Green, Lehigh, Indian Creek, Cherry Hills, Glen View, C.C of Virginia, C.C of Cleveland etc (Wayne--did I forget one?).

The tournament was the inspiration of Geoff Nixon from Glen View and was a two day stapleford format.

Glen View has a lot of history. Apparently the home course of Chick Evans--one of America's most notable early amateurs and winner in the same year of the US Open and the US Amateur as well as the namesake of the biggest caddie scholarship program in America by a mile.

Glen View is a beautiful club, beautiful 1922 clubhouse and beautiful William Flynn parkland golf course that was a redesign upgrade of a 1890s course by a Mr. Tweedie apparently. The 19th century photos excellently displayed around the clubhouse of the original Tweedie course shows a track that had plentiful evidence of geometric featuring.

Flynn came in around 1922-23 and offered the club a comprehensive redesign and partial rerouting--much of which was accepted by the club. The course is in the mid 6000yd range.

The course today appears to flow around the property in typical Flynn routing fashion--over some tee shot ridges, into valleys, up, down and around.

There're a few unusual architectural features, the most noticeable one first being the extremely wide tee end on the first hole (maybe up to 80yd) with back tees on either side separated by a practice putting green. A branch of the Chicago River meanders around the course and is used in various iterations on 8-9 holes.

The card is a bit misleading, certainly when it comes to the par 3s which appear to lack variety of length (on the card) but don't really lack that variety so much in play. The one par 3 playability lacking is at least one typical really long Flynn par 3.

The holes to me that had the most interest of architecture and strategy were #2!, the second half of #3, #6, #7's green, #9, #10, #11!!, #14! (reminiscient of Ross's #13 Seminole in playability), #16, #17!! and the green on #18. Although, again, it didn't show it on the card, I thought the par 3 greens were the most interesting in slope and contour on the course! The par 4 hole that was the most interesting to me was the short par 4 (350 yd) #17 with a wonderful right to left sloping green, well bunkered, sitting on a right to left sloping ridge at a wonderful angle to the tee shot choices which involved an enormous tree in the center of two fairway choices--the right side one involving a fascinated bank to filter a long tee ball left off of with the risk of hitting an original log cabin on the right!

All the bunkering at Glenview has been recently restored from mundane oval shapes to a Flynn interpretation by Chicago architect David Esler.

David Esler was at the Flynn Invitational on Thursday evening for dinner to explain and describe his ideas on his Flynn bunkering interpretation. The bunkers are basically grassed down to flattish floors with low profile random jaggedy grass edges on the incoming sides and sort of moundy ridge-like formations on the other sides and the outgoing sides.

Esler explained that he took this interpretation mostly from the Flynn bunkering at Brookline as well as some ideas from Merion. His overal intent was to create a degree of "iffiness" in bunker playability not so much from grassing but with smallish bays where lies and swings might be complicated! I'd call this kind of thing "iffiness" through architecture not sand floor maintenance. Some of the members refer to this occasional bunker recovery problem as "getting Eslered". From a "pay for failing to avoid certain bunkers" perspective it does work enough to get into player's heads and strategies, I'm sure.

The grassing on Esler's bunkers has a fescue mix that showed up last year as brown and rugged but this year as far more green (abundance of rain).

At the Thursday dinner, again, David Esler gave about a 20 minute talk on his ideas on Flynn bunkering and Wayne Morrison gave about a 20 minute talk on Flynn generally and I gave one too on Flynn, American architectural evolution and the general make-up of the "ideal maintenance meld" with some important specific details for various styles of course--particularly one such as Glen View.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2003, 09:21:59 AM »
You were right Tom, there were eight Flynn clubs represented.  Glen View did a wonderful job hosting the event and the course presented itself very well.  The membership should be proud of what they have.  

I thought David's Esler's talk was interesting and I enjoyed even more my discussion with him over dinner.  He said as Tom pointed out, that the bunkering at Brookline and Merion is what inspired him to change the look at Glen View.  He said he actually saw numerous other Philly Flynn courses but didn't like their plain and ordinary shape bunkering.  In his presentation (which unfortunately he couldn't show because of technical difficulties) he had pictures of other Flynn bunkers.  He also had comparisons of what he eventually decided on for Glen View side by side with bunkers at Brookline.  The look of the new bunkers he did is almost Thomas like in their edging but with limited flashing of sand.  I wish I could post pictures as I photographed much of the course.  

David did add his own touches where he thought the course needed sprucing up.  The wild left fairway bunker complex on #6 complete with islands etc. is supposedly a tribute to something he heard from a member at Huntingdon Valley.  The par three 14th hole now features a very dramatic collection of bunkers where originally there were only three.

I liked the width of the fairways and the classic feel of the layout.  There were numerous diagonals and shot options were plentiful from hole to hole.  The 17th was one of my favorite of the short par fours and reminesent of #4 at Lancaster.  

David said he at times struggled with the one shaper who "kept doing Nicklaus" and you can see that at times as you go around the golf course.  The greenside bunkering on #9 is a great example.    

Overall this was a great event and Glen View did themselves well.  
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2003, 10:39:59 AM »
The Glen View Club is a prominent club in a city with a storied history of golf.  There are more topographical changes at this location than most of the Chicago region (60 feet of elevation change) and the course flows well from 1-18 with nice variety and outstanding conditioning.  The greens were in marvelous shape and running pretty rapidly.  The fairways and rough were firm and fast, the greens a bit soft.  Jeff Luzinger and staff had the course ready for us and I more than failed to meet the challenge.  The club does not get much play outside its membership, in fact this was the first year that they participated in interclub play in the Chicago District Golf Association.  They are very proud of their Flynn heritage and have really pushed the concept of a National Invitational along the lines of other invitationals.  Geoff Nixon worked many hours to get this project going with the full support of the membership, the golf and house staff, and other Flynn clubs.  Philadelphia Country Club won the tournament and gets to keep the beautiful trophy for the next year.  We feel that in order to gain momentum and see this tournament attract a larger representation of clubs over the years, that the next tournament should be in Philadelphia.  Philadelphia CC would be a wonderful venue and Tom Flynn (no relation to William), the representative from PCC at the inaugural, is committed to seeing if this can happen.  The home club gets to choose the format, number of clubs, and the date.  Here's hoping we can continue the effort initiated by Glen View.  Chet, if you're reading this, maybe you can assist the cause.  The Owner's Club at the Homestead (Cascades and Old Course are nearly all or very much Flynn) will participate next year and I am certain that we can get a nice sampling of Eastern Pennsylvania Flynn courses to join in the fun.  Ron Forse has said that he would be happy to come and speak of the restoration of PCC and other issues of interest.  He is currently working on Manufacturers, a Flynn course in Huntingdon Valley and the nearby LuLu, the first Ross in Pennsylvania.  

If anyone is interested in seeking representation for their Flynn club and/or future hosting of the event please contact me and I will direct you to the tournament committee.  The eight original clubs that participated all were represented by fine and fun gentlemen with a real passion for golf and golf architecture.  To a man we drank praises to the craft of Mr. Flynn.  Some of us continued well into Friday morning.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 10:41:16 AM by wsmorrison »

TEPaul

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2003, 11:52:18 AM »
"To a man we drank praises to the craft of Mr. Flynn.  Some of us continued well into Friday morning."

And we would've drank praises a lot longer into Friday morning if they'd some more damn bars in the Glen View vicinity but I swear they must be some teetotalers out there. It's hard to say how long Bill Flynn and Howard Toomey spent on site redoing Glen View Club in the early 1920s but if they didn't have any more damn bars out there then than they do know I don't know what to say. The number of bars in the vicinity of the courses Bill and Howard worked on had a direct relationship to the dramatic creativity they put into their work---everybody knows that!! So they must have had more bars in Glen View than they do now!   ;)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 11:55:34 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2003, 11:54:35 AM »
I think it is important to note that the representatives of CC of Virginia and Lehigh happily played for the winning Philadelphia CC team.  They are awaiting their honorary memberships  ;D

wsmorrison

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2003, 12:07:07 PM »
Tom,

Pretty darned hard to get a drink anywhere in the Glen View area after 11pm, that's for sure--but we were determined.  There had to be more bars back in the 1920s, either that or Howard and Bill brought their own!  

Oops, right you are Mark.  Congratulations to the Philly Country team that was a composite of Lehigh and CC of Virginia.  Nice showing, gentlemen.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2003, 04:34:42 PM »
I just played Glen View a few weeks ago and I must say I was impressed with the restoration work done there by David Esler.

Tom:
According to my sources this event was a smashing success and I wish I could have been in attendance as well. ;)

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2003, 08:12:41 PM »
Paul:

I wish you'd been there too. I met a man who'd just come from an historian's meeting with you and others saying that was a great success too.

There was another interesting occurence while at Glen View. Not an hour after we arrived a bus arrived filled with some very nice people who had come to see Glen View to see the original landscape architecture work on the golf course of O.C Simon-- famous Chicago landscape architect akin to Olmestead. So I decided to go out there with them in about ten carts as they looked over the golf course and discussed landscape architecture.

So me being the kind of butt-in guy I am I tried to dominate the session out on the 3rd hole and explain how naturalism in architecture and all that meant (naturalizing the lines and look of bunker features and all the lines of golf architecture) should take precedence over landscape architecture and even that trees and golf courses were inherently antithethetical for a variety of reasons.

Some of them were actually very interested and later we got into a discussion of the "Arts and Crafts Movement" and golf architecture and even something I'd never heard of called the "Rural Graveyard Movement". I plan to bone up on that latter movement to discover what influnence it may have had on early golf architecture or vice versa!!  ;)

PAW13

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2003, 11:23:10 PM »
Wayne, glad to hear the first Flynn Invitational went well.  Way not aware Tom Flynn was going out, congrats to him and the makeshift PCC team.

As for PCC hosting the event in 2004, most likely will not be able to happen.  We already have two majors on our calendar for next year the GAP Philadelphia Open in July and the PA State Mid-Amateur in September.  

Maybe sometime in the future.

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2003, 05:53:37 AM »
Wayne,
I am curious if you looked at the overlay of Flynn's plans with the overhead of the pre-restoration course in Jeff's office.

Tom Paul,
A short cab ride west would have led to the 4 am bar. We have quite a few of those in the city as well. Just pretend you are Tillie and demand your driver to take you to the next tavern.

It would have been nice to see the esteemed writers as they graced our part of the country  ;)

wsmorrison

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2003, 07:41:30 AM »
Chet,
Thanks for the input.  Congratulations do go to Tom and others on his team.  I believe Tom will receive the trophy at the Flynn Cup dinner at Rolling Green on Oct 10, it is a beautiful trophy and will look great among all the silver at PCC.
I hope we can get a full complement from PCC next year.  It will be at a Philly area club next year, maybe Lehigh (a bit off the beaten track) or Rolling Green.  Huntingdon Valley would be an excellent venue.  I'll try to get something going at the Flynn Cup.
Regards,
Wayne

wsmorrison

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2003, 07:44:39 AM »
Patrick,
I forgot to look in Jeff's office at the overhead you previously mentioned.  Jeff is coming into town for the Flynn Cup in October, perhaps he can make me a copy.  Adrian Kruse made me a small photocopy of the map, so I am somewhat familiar with it...very interesting.  I would like to see a larger format.  Next time we're in Chicago, let's get together.  Sorry we couldn't do it this time around.
Best,
Wayne

eaglepower

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2003, 01:48:05 PM »

Is this tournament an honest effort to match teams from various Flynn courses, or a chance to get on great private tracks? You said the  PCC team only had one Philly member!  Put me on the Lehigh team when it's at Shinnecock

wsmorrison

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2003, 03:09:08 PM »
This was the inaugural event and was a fine tournament even though some teams were makeshift.  The indications are that more teams are interested (Eagles Mere and Cascades) for next year and we will undoubtedly have better representation if the next event is in the Philadelphia area.  I am very pleased that Indian Creek, Cherry Hills, CC-Pepper Pike, and Glen View fielded full teams.  All present were enthusiastic and willing to see the tournament reach its potential.  There was a real good feeling among all of us, we contributed to the Chick Evans Scholarship Fund and enjoyed the companionship.

Eaglepower,
Why do you feel the need to disparage our efforts?  Who says we are ever going to have something like this at Shinnecock?  There is no hidden agenda.  The participants were happy to meet others in the Flynn community and share restoration issues, learn more about Flynn, maintenance practices, and other issues that impact us all.  None of us need a circuitous rout to play courses nor would it have occured to us.  I think your character is revealed by your insinuation.  Besides, why would you want to play Flynn's courses that you have previously stated are driver and wedge courses?

You come across as a nattering nabob of negativity.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2003, 10:16:42 PM »
I agree with Wayne.  This was an excellent event and well hosted by Glen View.  Not all the courses participating were able to field full teams but frankly the competition was a distant second to just being able to see another Flynn golf course, evaluate the work that had been done there, and meet members from other Flynn clubs who share the same interests in golf course design.  I really don't think any of those who participated were there to get course access.  

TEPaul

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2003, 11:01:30 PM »
Eaglepower:

Access? Jeesus man, do you know what an invitational means? See if you can figure out how to operate the delete button!

eaglepower

Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2003, 02:34:50 PM »
I appreciate the fact that some of you took offense with my post.  Please understand that much of what I say is in jest.  It's just that it seems as if the Flynn people tend to talk of all the exclusive courses they play, seemingly under the guise of writing a book.

Also, I can take any insults and criticism hurled my way, but TEPaul, please don't use the Lord's name in your retort.  That's something no one should do.  Thanks for respecting that.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Glen View G.C. (Chicago)
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2003, 08:42:26 PM »
eaglepower,
I was on to these guys in a flash. As soon as I posted on here that Flynn had done some work at my club, they were on me like a cheap suit trying to get access. Believe me, these are not guys you want to hang around with.