[Sean_A]

Sorry Jon...unless

1. Our group is clearly out of position

Or

2. We are in position, but I think there is a clear opportunity for a 2ball behind to sneak through a few groups into open country

Or

3. There are specified club rules

...there is no way I am letting a 2ball thru when our group is waiting or in an ideal world always just over half a hole behind.  I think letting a group through without conditions 1 or 2 risks slowing everything down with no benefit to anybody.  Chances are, if there is a 2ball on the heels of a 4ball, a chance will arise for a call thru during a lost ball search...the 2ball just needs to be patient (think of others and their position) and if it is in my power I will certainly reward their patience    Often times, as a visitor, I can only make a suggestion...the member makes the call...and rightfully so.  At my club or on nuetral turf, I will always look for ways to push a 2ball thru, but it has to make sense.


Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


Thought I weighed in on this already .


Do not , do not , post acceptable time limits . The four hour round doesn't work , it eventually becomes 410 415 425 450 .  What do you tell a member playing at a four hour pace and holding up the whole shebang.


Don't do it.  Stay with the group ahead , stay in place works much better.  Then your pro or ranger can politely ask the offender to see if they can bet back in position. No doubt they will say we lost two balls , or Joe is having a bad day etc Eric . That's fine , give them some slack and you just might be surprised at the results.

[Niall C]

A couple of weeks ago I had the very good fortune to play Pebble Beach with 3 very good friends. We were first off at 7.30am and were riding carts. None of us had played the course before.


We completed the round in 4hrs 40 mins pretty well putting everything out (well, you would at that price !) and that included standing aside at the 7^th to let a three ball through. By the time we finished the 3 ball was out of sight and the group behind were only on the tee when we were leaving the green.


The target time was 4hrs 30 mins so I suppose that makes us “slow”. However in mitigation we did let the faster group through (they didn’t need to ask). All parties were (presumably) happy with their day out due not so much to the pace of play but by the exercise of good manners. Shouldn’t that be all there is to it ?
 
Niall

[Ian Mackenzie]

A couple of weeks ago I had the very good fortune to play Pebble Beach with 3 very good friends. We were first off at 7.30am and were riding carts. None of us had played the course before.


We completed the round in 4hrs 40 mins pretty well putting everything out (well, you would at that price !) and that included standing aside at the 7^th to let a three ball through. By the time we finished the 3 ball was out of sight and the group behind were only on the tee when we were leaving the green.


The target time was 4hrs 30 mins so I suppose that makes us “slow”. However in mitigation we did let the faster group through (they didn’t need to ask). All parties were (presumably) happy with their day out due not so much to the pace of play but by the exercise of good manners. Shouldn’t that be all there is to it ?
 
Niall

Niall,


Yes....and NO!!!


Pebble Beach is just an anomaly from start to finish. It's an extreme example in every sense: green fee, location, scenery, etc.
5 hour rounds there are the norm, not the exception and many rounds push the 5:30+ mark.


Shadow Creek, Pinehurst #2, Whistling Straits and a few others all are at $400-$500 per round plus caddy fees. It's also a resort course that caters to high-end vacationers and corporate outings. It's in the top .0001 percent of all golf courses.


Glad you enjoyed it and, yes, sounds like pace was no issue. But, NO, this is not a good example.


Cheers,
Ian

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,

I think as JK pointed out, this is where "fast" players miss the point.  They are often so damn rushed to get the round over, they don't take notice to what's going on ahead of them and the crest of carnage they leave in their wake.

The scenario I pointed out is not infrequent...it happens a lot at public courses, especially on weekends during the prime season. And as Sean and I both pointed out, a fast group trying to work its way thru many groups is only going to have a slowing effect on everyone else, who are already frustrated themselves.

P.S.  I agree that one slow group can slow everyone down, I don't think that was ever in question.  But if I'm in a 4 some, 5 holes (10 groups) behind that slow group, its not going to do any good to let a fast group play thru everyone because by the time they reach that slow group, the round is likely to be almost over.

[Niall C]

Ian


The point I was making, if any, as that it wasn't the pace of play as such but allowing faster groups through that counts. That way everyone can play at there own pace, within reason, and enjoy themselves. Setting a mandatory pace will not please everyone.


In fact I recall playing at another very well known course that's in Spain where the starter gave us a 5 minute lecture on keeping pace and not falling behind etc. He finished the lecture by stating that we must complete the round in a certain time. After the briefest of pauses my friend pipes and says "that's all very well but do we have to go that slowly ?"


Niall

[Ian Mackenzie]

I hear you, Niall, and do understand. Hope you enjoyed the area and had a chance to play other courses.


KB, my fast play is (sadly) restricted to...ahem...private courses. Whenever I play a resort course or public venue, I am very comfortable at a more leisurely pace....to a point. Anything over 4:30, unless I am playing a "destination course", and I start twitching a bit....

[Kalen Braley]

Ian,

That's been my experience as well.  And I would also concur that 4:30 on a weekend round never felt bad.  I think a reasonable person can understand, the course is crowded, everyone is out for their weekend round, why not just enjoy the extra time outdoors?

P.S.  As the vast majority of my rounds are on public courses, I think a big part of the problem to slow play is the Saturday/Sunday weekly men's club who gets all the best tee times, 8-10 AM. If you go off just behind them its almost always slow as they play multiple bets and for trash talking rights.  And heaven forbid the staff at the local course bite the hand that feeds them by bugging them to speed up....these guys are usually their most loyal customers week in and week out.

Its a tough spot many courses are in, I totally understand.....

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I think as JK pointed out, this is where "fast" players miss the point.  They are often so damn rushed to get the round over, they don't take notice to what's going on ahead of them and the crest of carnage they leave in their wake.

The scenario I pointed out is not infrequent...it happens a lot at public courses, especially on weekends during the prime season. And as Sean and I both pointed out, a fast group trying to work its way thru many groups is only going to have a slowing effect on everyone else, who are already frustrated themselves.

P.S.  I agree that one slow group can slow everyone down, I don't think that was ever in question.  But if I'm in a 4 some, 5 holes (10 groups) behind that slow group, its not going to do any good to let a fast group play thru everyone because by the time they reach that slow group, the round is likely to be almost over.

Kalen,

you are mistaking fast play with faster play. A normal speed for 18 holes of golf should be 3 to 3.5 hours. Therefor any group taking longer will by definition find that players playing at a NORMAL speed will be faster than them but this does not make the faster players fast players.

Where Sean is correct is that he is describing a gridlock situation where because some group ahead has taken way to long and no one did anything about it the play for all has been slowed. Letting other players through may not help his group in such a situation though in the past he might have thought differently.

What you are pushing seems to be that everyone must endure the slowest players pace of play which is one of the many reasons golf has lost in popularity over the last decade or so. It is like being stuck behind a group of cars three abreast on a three lane motorway all doing 40mph where the limit (normal speed) is 70mph. The traffic is stacked up for a mile behind them and someone in Sean's situation is in a car 4 or 5 behind the front of the traffic jam. He will be obviously not inclined to let others pass. He should however, as everyone else in the blockage behind the three numbskulls be making it clear to them that they are being inconsiderate prats.

You maybe happy to dawdle along enjoying the scenery and smell the roses (and gas fumes) but most people are not. As on the course the three numbskulls should move to the side to allow faster groups to pass. Normal pace of play is 3 to 3.5 hours and if everyone adapted their playing to accommodate this norm then golf and the majority of golfers would be all the better for it.

As for JK, I have little time for the rubbish he usually is spouting.

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,

I'm a little confused.  You said:

Where Sean is correct is that he is describing a gridlock situation where because some group ahead has taken way to long and no one did anything about it the play for all has been slowed. Letting other players through may not help his group in such a situation though in the past he might have thought differently.

This is exactly what I described in the PS. part of my post you quoted and concurs with Seans' post..

One group plays slow creating a logjam of several groups that backs up several holes of the golf course.  And then a twosome playing fast, wants to work their way thru all of those groups instead of just accepting their fate.  This is IMO rude on the part of the twosome because of so many groups they must navigate their way thru, when many of those groups are already feeling the same frustration.

This is entirely different than a two some catching 1-2 slow groups, but then having clear sailing after that.

[Sean_A]

Jon,

I think as JK pointed out, this is where "fast" players miss the point.  They are often so damn rushed to get the round over, they don't take notice to what's going on ahead of them and the crest of carnage they leave in their wake.

The scenario I pointed out is not infrequent...it happens a lot at public courses, especially on weekends during the prime season. And as Sean and I both pointed out, a fast group trying to work its way thru many groups is only going to have a slowing effect on everyone else, who are already frustrated themselves.

P.S.  I agree that one slow group can slow everyone down, I don't think that was ever in question.  But if I'm in a 4 some, 5 holes (10 groups) behind that slow group, its not going to do any good to let a fast group play thru everyone because by the time they reach that slow group, the round is likely to be almost over.

Kalen,

you are mistaking fast play with faster play. A normal speed for 18 holes of golf should be 3 to 3.5 hours. Therefor any group taking longer will by definition find that players playing at a NORMAL speed will be faster than them but this does not make the faster players fast players.

Where Sean is correct is that he is describing a gridlock situation where because some group ahead has taken way to long and no one did anything about it the play for all has been slowed. Letting other players through may not help his group in such a situation though in the past he might have thought differently.

What you are pushing seems to be that everyone must endure the slowest players pace of play which is one of the many reasons golf has lost in popularity over the last decade or so. It is like being stuck behind a group of cars three abreast on a three lane motorway all doing 40mph where the limit (normal speed) is 70mph. The traffic is stacked up for a mile behind them and someone in Sean's situation is in a car 4 or 5 behind the front of the traffic jam. He will be obviously not inclined to let others pass. He should however, as everyone else in the blockage behind the three numbskulls be making it clear to them that they are being inconsiderate prats.

You maybe happy to dawdle along enjoying the scenery and smell the roses (and gas fumes) but most people are not. As on the course the three numbskulls should move to the side to allow faster groups to pass. Normal pace of play is 3 to 3.5 hours and if everyone adapted their playing to accommodate this norm then golf and the majority of golfers would be all the better for it.

As for JK, I have little time for the rubbish he usually is spouting.

Jon

Jon


It might not be gridlock at all.  4balls could be moving quite well 3.5 hour pace, but if there is nowhere to go and groups are keeping up...why exactly should folks allow 2balls thru?  There has to be a degree of common sense for 2ballers.  If you play with 4balls its unrealistic to expect to play in 2ball time.  But I want to be clear, if I am making the call, I will look for ways to push 2balls thru...its not spite holding them back...its common sense.  But then I am 100% in favour of early times for 2balls only.  I hate to see a course congested with 4balls from 8AM because the chances are it will end in time disaster unless someone in the know is directing play.  Of course, that also means that players have to admit that they aren't as fast as some others.  Judging by the GCA.com crowd...everybody thinks they play fast, but few do 

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

The question you need to ask yourself is: Do you want a fellow member more concerned with who is behind him or who is in front of him?

[Mike Sweeney]

The question you need to ask yourself is: Do you want a fellow member more concerned with who is behind him or who is in front of him?

You taught us that we want fellow members that pay their bills and don't show up.


Please stay consistent!

[John Kavanaugh]

You can't chase a sweet spot in life, they come only with the patience that allows them to come to you. I found one today or perhaps it found me, and damn it was beautiful.

[Buck Wolter]

You can't chase a sweet spot in life, they come only with the patience that allows them to come to you. I found one today or perhaps it found me, and damn it was beautiful.

That one is quote of the day calendar worthy.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I'm a little confused.  You said:

Where Sean is correct is that he is describing a gridlock situation where because some group ahead has taken way to long and no one did anything about it the play for all has been slowed. Letting other players through may not help his group in such a situation though in the past he might have thought differently.

This is exactly what I described in the PS. part of my post you quoted and concurs with Seans' post..

One group plays slow creating a logjam of several groups that backs up several holes of the golf course.  And then a twosome playing fast, wants to work their way thru all of those groups instead of just accepting their fate.  This is IMO rude on the part of the twosome because of so many groups they must navigate their way thru, when many of those groups are already feeling the same frustration.

This is entirely different than a two some catching 1-2 slow groups, but then having clear sailing after that.

Kalen,

correct but the gridlock is not what is causing the slow play but rather that which caused the gridlock is. The two ball is not the party on the course lacking manners but rather the slow group you describe who caused the pace of play to become slow and did not invite the groups waiting behind to play though and of course the group behind them for not requesting they be let through. Certainly, the poor buggers playing behind them having to endure the snail's pace of play are blameless.

Sean,

3.5 for a 4ball is a decent pace of play and I doubt a 2ball would ask to play through if there was no room ahead. I think we are both on the same page in this.

I watched the Masters last night and the excruciating Mr. Spieth. He is a fabulous player but with all his conferring, fidgeting, stepping away, conferring again, stepping away again....... he made the whole experience of watching a misery. I endured it until the 13th when they were 2 holes behind thinking at some point the group would be put on the clock. I turned it off in utter, utter boredom, what does this guy have to do to get penalised for slow play. I guess the next step for him is to start sleeping on a decision before hitting the shot. At the moment I do not know if I will bother to watch tonight's round despite Langer and the rest playing some good stuff at a half decent pace (well for the Masters).

Jon
Jon

[Sean_A]

I agree with Spieth, but it doesn't matter as much to me because I refuse to watch golf live when at home. Spieth gets the 4X speed treatment  .  I think on 18 it must have taken Spieth 10 minutes to hit two consecutive (his 3rd and 4th) shots and both were bloody awful efforts.  On 15 Rory hit his approach and had time to walk to the green and mark before Spieth hit!  I don't know how its possible he doesn't get penalized.  I am a determined anti-Spieth guy. 


Ciao

[Buck Wolter]

I knew we were in trouble when on #2 Rory hit first from the fairway bunker and Speith had a fairly straight forward shot from the left rough, they broke away and came back and Rory (and caddy who had to first rake said bunker) were 200 yards down the fairway waiting for Speith to hit.

That had to be 2-3 minutes before he hit the shot unless the last group doesn't rake bunkers then it would still be 1-2. How is that possible let alone allowed?

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,
You said,

correct but the gridlock is not what is causing the slow play but rather that which caused the gridlock is. The two ball is not the party on the course lacking manners but rather the slow group you describe who caused the pace of play to become slow and did not invite the groups waiting behind to play though and of course the group behind them for not requesting they be let through. Certainly, the poor buggers playing behind them having to endure the snail's pace of play are blameless.

I think that was a really good way to put it and agree whole-heartedly. So perhaps it is the first few groups behind the slow one that are complicit in the act. And then once a few groups gets stacked up, the ones behind them don't even bother to try to play thru.  That sounds pretty accurate.

[Kalen Braley]

John K and Jon playing golf?     

P.S.  My hothead buddy actually did this once!!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6KFiMT3MIs

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,

ah, the old Wilsons with the twist shaft now those were clubs. But you are wrong, I would never play golf using a buggy.

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

ah, the old Wilsons with the twist shaft now those were clubs. But you are wrong, I would never play golf using a buggy.

Jon

Ha ha, in the spirit of brotherhood, you and JK would be playing a "buddy-up" round to mend fences and JK would be the Miles character who "returned" the ball back to its owners!! 

[Sean_A]

We also mustn't ever lose sight of the overall picture.  The player is one piece of the slow play pie...the one piece which is hardest to control.  I am not saying there shouldn't be any focus on players, but stuff like


rough/narrow fairways
green speed
tee time management
course design


all can contribute significantly to slow play...and these are issues which club owners and developers do have control over...


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

We also mustn't ever lose sight of the overall picture.  The player is one piece of the slow play pie...the one piece which is hardest to control.  I am not saying there shouldn't be any focus on players, but stuff like


rough/narrow fairways
green speed
tee time management
course design


all can contribute significantly to slow play...and these are issues which club owners and developers do have control over...


Ciao

Good points Sean.

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