[Ulrich Mayring]

What has worked at our club is, ironically, stuffing the course. They didn't do it on purpose, it's just a very popular club with lots of players and if you don't reserve your weekend tee time well in advance, the tee sheet will be booked out. So on week-ends with tolerable weather we have groups of four going out from dawn till about two hours before dusk in ten minute intervals with zero room to spare.

As you can imagine, even one slow group will immediately stall the entire system and people will not be able to tee off at their alloted time. Interestingly, this has led to a general sense of urgency to keep up with the group in front. No one wants to be the guy, who cannot tee off, because there is a backup already on the first tee.

I have found that on courses with a lot less traffic, play is also a lot slower. Players simply don't have that sense of urgency. When there's enough time, someone is bound to use it! Thus make sure that there is no time to spare and misery ensues for half the club members. Things will change then!

Of course what that means is that everyone has to play at the same pace. Which in our case on those busy weekend days comes out to about 4 hours and 25 minutes. So this is not particularly fast play. But it does support 100% course utilisation with ten minute tee times.

Think about it: four par 3s at 10 minutes each, 10 par 4s at 15 minutes each and 4 par 5s at 20 minutes each would come out to more than five hours. So there is plenty of time, don't be afraid to overload your course

Ulrich

[jeffwarne]

Some very good suggestions here.
I've seen players who move very quickly but they have SOOOOO much to do in their routine that they still are slow.
Players are always going to emulate what they see on TV.
used to be the only people taking practice swings were amateurs. Now pros have a caddie conversation, take multiple practice swings, realign, back off..... and even more if they're aimpoint /cheaterline advocates.


I've never understood the three-four practice swing guy(often with a divot each time)-times 100-that's a lot of swings.

[Steve Lang]

   Ulrich,


Please advise the length of your home course, and is everybody walking?

[Sean_A]

Ulrich

Lets just say I won't be suggesting your plan to my club anytime soon 

I don't have good solutions to slow play...short of banning (or threatening) slow players during prime times...I don't think anything will be entirely satisfactory.  That said, I always preferred

-10 minute intervals
-Elimination of stupid rough...which is most rough within 35 yards of the corridor centreline
-1st hour or so reserved for 2balls
-3balls or less from 8:30ish to 10:00ish
-4 balls not allowed on course until 10:00ish
-2 balls have the primary standing on the course
-One tee time per hour left open for walk ons

For public courses I think there is some scope to charge a premium for early times under the above scheme, but in general golf would be more expensive, but more enjoyable.  At privates, I don't care what they do cause they can kick folks out of clubs for slow play if they had the balls to do so.  At privates, where there is a will there is a way to 100% eliminate slow play.

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Hi Sean,

I agree, there is a difference between observing what worked in one place and recommending to implement it at another.

Steve,

my home course is 6260 yards and I would estimate that 80-90% are walking. We do have a cart fleet, though, but it makes no difference in speed, as they mostly drive on the fairways and green to tee distances are short.

Ulrich

[Doug Siebert]

How do we enforce this without offending members?

Step one: don't worry about offending members. Only the slow ones will be offended, the fast ones or ones who are slow because that's the norm but quickly adapt to playing faster will be fine and should be in the majority. If they aren't, it is a lost cause.

[Doug Siebert]

First groups are key and should be staged according to pace.

Think about how big marathons with thousands of runners are started. You don't mix them randomly so you have some guys running 10 minute miles at the front and some guys running 5 minute miles back in the pack. That would be a disaster as the moderately fast guys are trying to get past the slow ones, while the really fast ones are trying to get past them. Instead, the faster ones are in front, the slower ones start behind them and on to the really slow ones (or don't yet have any official timings to show they deserve to be further up)

So you time all groups when they play, and the faster you are the earlier tee time you are eligible for. Now its a problem if you play behind a slow group, so you have to manage it properly - if group A starts at 8:00, group B at 8:10 and group C at 8:20, and they finish at 11:30, 12:20 and 12:30 you can't place too much blame on group C since they were held up by group B. The other problem is that you might be a fast player, but sometimes play with other fast players and sometimes play with slow players. So one round you finish in 3:30 and the next in 4:30. You could handle this like USGA handicaps - take an average of your top half of times. If you have a few rounds with slow players and that one round you got behind a group that fell three holes behind it won't hurt your "fast play handicap" and you'll keep your eligibility for early tee times.

Oh, and there should be other perks besides just access to early tee times. Otherwise you will provide no incentive for guys like me to play fast, since I hate dewsweeping, so telling me I can't play early wouldn't incentivize me to change my behavior. Add $10 to the price of a round (or 10% to the monthly dues in a club) and offer a $10/10% discount to those who maintain whatever pace is considered 'acceptable' - which can change over time so you don't need to convert a place from a 4:30 to a 3:30 culture overnight. Shoot for 4:15, then 4:00 and so on and hopefully find people like having more time in their day and want to continue pushing the pace. At least when you're stuck behind a slow group you could take solace in thinking how they are paying more than you are

[Sean_A]

Hi Sean,

I agree, there is a difference between observing what worked in one place and recommending to implement it at another.

Steve,

my home course is 6260 yards and I would estimate that 80-90% are walking. We do have a cart fleet, though, but it makes no difference in speed, as they mostly drive on the fairways and green to tee distances are short.

Ulrich

Ulrich


Thats just it, a packed course playing in 4:25 if all goes perfectly is not working imo.  It must be deemed ok in Germany to play in 4:25 hours, for me that is far from acceptable and I am not a fast player.  The concept is great for publics in terms of raking in cash, but then the entire idea relies on people caring about those in the rear.  If that was the case there wouldn't be a slow play problem, just a cultural issue as to how much time is deemed acceptable for a game of golf. 


I know JakaB takes the piss out of guys who want to play fast, but I do feel very bad for these guys.  They spend a ton of down time on courses for what is often not at all good reasons.  3:45ish 4ball/3:15ish 3ball and 2:45ish 2ball times are a reasonable compromise.


For me the situation of slow play has made me enter far less competitions, seek to play much more 2-3 ball golf and avoid 4balls on tough courses....thats just asking for headaches. 


Ciao 

[John Kavanaugh]

As the only slow player who frequents this site I feel the need to represent our side of this story. The truth of the matter is that you will never correct the slow play "problem" until you bring slow players to the table with an open dialogue.


We had a frost delay this Sunday so ended up with a full range waiting to tee off. My group, the only foursome, and the slowest had the first time of the day because of the delay. We got it all worked out so everyone played at the exact pace they desired, but without some hard feelings. When I suggested strongly that a twosome go over to the tee and start they told me they would rather warm up a bit longer and wait. Someone else chimed in that I was out of place and we should all tee off on our reserved times. I told them that they had two choices, either tee off now and enjoy their day or…a non verbal image was projected. They went to the first tee followed by two other twosomes and a threesome as we chipped and putted and drank bloody mary's. Everyone was happy except the initial twosome who had to hurry their warm up routine. I bet they cheered up when we saw them next on 18 tee as we were putting on 10 green.


If you want to play fast maybe you don't get to warm up as long. If you want to play slow maybe you don't get to tee off so soon. It just takes communication and one asshole to sum it up in a language that everyone understands.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have heard and seen this topic discussed in earnest for years.
It comes up at our club every 3-4 years. At public-access courses, it is quite a problem and can cost course operators significantly.

However, in the end, I have never seen or heard of a solution that was implemented and addressed this cancerous problem successfully (in the US).

Outside of very specific and very onerous play guidelines, how do you put a dent in this?
The only thing that I have seen that can work is allowing faster players, who usually play in 2 and 3-balls, to have the first tee times.

What else CAN you do? 1) shame and punish the guilty? 2) provide educational tools and instructional videos?

]The group with whom I play the most golf (here in Chicago) has spent hours disuccing this topic at our quarterly gatherings of the "Amalgamated Meat-cutter's Union" - a fictitious club we have that dines at a different local BBQ restaurant. Should you wish that I post our discoveries and conclusions, please just ask....;-)

[Sean_A]

JakaB


Well, in part you are definitely right.  The first step in correcting slow play is to admit there is slow play.  I have never played with you so I can't say if you are slow or not, but you fess up.  However, you are far from the only slow player on this site.  In my experience of playing GCA.com events, slow play if rife in our ranks...yet we have only one person admit to the problem. Maybe first of all we should try out some of the suggestions at GCA.com events and practice what we preach. 


Ciao

[Bill_Yates]

Ian,
You've forced me to now post a shameless plug.


The pace of play can be improved! When course management teams are properly trained to discover the unique root causes of slow play on their course and properly address those causes, the pace and flow of play most certainly be improved.


Visit www.pacemanager.com and go to my "News & Articles" section, you'll find a wealth of information that is practical and useful. I've been successful working at courses around the world.

[Ben Hollerbach]

While my club consistently hits a 4 hour pace on Saturday mornings, it could be much quicker.


One of our biggest hurdles is the first group out in the morning. The dew sweepers have had the first 2 tee times for the past 25 or 30 years and their paces has slowed, but they don't seem to realize it and while the pro shop staff is keenly aware their speed sets the pace for the rest of the course they are apprehensive to do something about it. This is a tough spot as our pace is more than acceptable, so the concession is made towards the long term members but it is recognizable that it could be much quicker.


Another issue, that is seemingly growing is the resistance to let quicker groups play through. Yesterday morning I tee'd off in the last group of our morning block. With a full course of players in front of me it was understood that my groups pace was going to be set by the course in front of us.  I noticed on the first hole that the group 2 in front was moving at a good pace down the second hole, but the group right in front was not. I began a timer on the second hold, measuring how much time we had to wait on them presumably until they let us through. After 18 holes they were always a hole behind the group ahead and they had held us up for 45 minutes. After the round I ran into the foresome and one of the members apologized "if they had held us up". I told him no need to apologize, just let us through. This evoked a chuckle, he did not get my comment, So I told him that I had timed them and we had waited on them for 45 minutes. Once again blank faces.


The issue of passing through quicker groups seems to be mostly ignored by the older and younger players. As someone of the millennial generation, It's rather embarrassing how much other millennial players just don't seem to care about their place on the course. Good pace of play is built into the clubs culture. Consciously or unconsciously the members establish their own pace. For one to change their clubs pace I think it would take quite a number of people recognizing the problem and being diligent in adjusting the members view of it. I've always liked the clocks as it is a good passive reminder, but there needs to be some formalized steps taken to. New rules on tee time positions and the expected pace could be helpful. Something like all players who tee off before 9am are expected to play at a pace below 3:45, If any player fails to meet that pace for 2 rounds within a month will not be allowed to tee off at that time for the next 2 months.

[Jason Connor]

It seems this can start with the pro / starter. 


They probably know the fast players/groups. Given them early priority and let them set the pace.  3-4 groups going quickly to start the morning  Then make it the expectation that groups behind keep up.


As someone above said, you can't set the expectation at 4 hours, because then one group lags and everyone is play 4:15 to 4:30 the rest of the morning.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,


If the group you timed let you through your day would have gone better to the expense of everyone behind you. The slow group would naturally play even slower because of the ritual of letting you through. Do you feel good about you being made happy at the expense of so many other golfers?


note: Sunday after all my dealings to make sure everyone played at a pace that made them happy we were caught by another twosome on the 7th hole.  Despite the fact we had waited on the tee of the par three 7th we let the twosome hit before we had reached the green. I just couldn't take their attitude standing on the tee like the world was coming to an end. Worked out ok until we found out that the one with the attitude was an overgrown eighth grade prodigy. Cartballing goddamn eighth grader on a Sunday morning in a twosome with some other poster child for adolescent obesity sporting a highschool golf team bag. Not even so much as a thank you because they already believed my foursome had disturbed their right as golfers to have everything their way.

[Kalen Braley]

It seems to me, and perhaps its just my perception...

Most public courses are reluctant to bother/encourage slow groups on the course for fear of pissing them off and them going elsewhere.

Yes I've heard the argument that slow play will in turn piss off the hardcore repeat customers, but lets be real.  These guys are almost always the ones with "preferred" tee times and tee off before 9 AM anyways before things slow down.  To boot, these guys are hardcore for a reason, very few things will discourage them from getting out  frequently on their favorite course.

So it seems that having rangers get after the once-in-awhile slower player who show up later in the day is only going to chase them away, especially here in Northern Utah where decent and very affordable options are plentiful.....

[Tim_Weiman]

Some very good suggestions here.
I've seen players who move very quickly but they have SOOOOO much to do in their routine that they still are slow.
Players are always going to emulate what they see on TV.
used to be the only people taking practice swings were amateurs. Now pros have a caddie conversation, take multiple practice swings, realign, back off..... and even more if they're aimpoint /cheaterline advocates.


I've never understood the three-four practice swing guy(often with a divot each time)-times 100-that's a lot of swings.

Jeff,


Regarding golf on TV, it should be banned in the United States.


For some reason, it doesn't appear to have had as bad an influence in Europe, so I'm still ok with it there.

[Kalen Braley]

Some very good suggestions here.
I've seen players who move very quickly but they have SOOOOO much to do in their routine that they still are slow.
Players are always going to emulate what they see on TV.
used to be the only people taking practice swings were amateurs. Now pros have a caddie conversation, take multiple practice swings, realign, back off..... and even more if they're aimpoint /cheaterline advocates.


I've never understood the three-four practice swing guy(often with a divot each time)-times 100-that's a lot of swings.

Jeff,


Regarding golf on TV, it should be banned in the United States.


For some reason, it doesn't appear to have had as bad an influence in Europe, so I'm still ok with it there.

Tim,

Ban golf on TV in America?  FFS man, April Fools was a few days back....

[Ben Hollerbach]

Ben,


If the group you timed let you through your day would have gone better to the expense of everyone behind you. The slow group would naturally play even slower because of the ritual of letting you through. Do you feel good about you being made happy at the expense of so many other golfers?

Yes, yes I do!


The hope would be that the processes of letting a group through would be enough of a kick in the pants to speed up the other group, but of course the hope would be that having a group sit on their heels for the entire round would do the same thing.


One other thing to note, We run split tees all weekend, so play goes off of both 1 and 10 from 8:00 to 9:44 and then the second wave starts their rounds at noon. this means the pace in the morning will not affect the pace in the afternoon and a quicker group teeing off at the back of the block is hopefully able to push potentially slower groups in the middle. Now by ending the tee times at 9:44, we expect the first group to be making the turn at 9:52, or on a 3:44 pace. If they are playing closer to a 4 hour pace then they will not catch up to the last group of the block before completing their round.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,


With that many golfers on the course I would give up on happiness and settle for survival.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Lester George presented on his adjustments to Independence Golf Club in regards to pace of play at the 2015 Golf Club Atlas Philadelphia "Barn Fest," organized and hosted by Joe Bausch. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alZQQXetfFc

[Dave McCollum]

I know a popular public course that stages many outings that has the local rules boldly posted on the first tee, including playing 9 holes in under two hours.  They say if you can't maintain this pace, you will be asked to leave.  The roving marshals keep it moving and sometimes ask a group to skip a hole and go to the next.  If they kick somebody off, I think they refund some of their money.  It can be done.  On cold days the marshals carry bottles of brandy (and coffee) and offer shots as they cheerfully tell the golfers to keep up.   

[Carl Nichols]

I've mentioned this before, but we have combined two strategies mentioned on this thread with great success.  First, on weekends and holidays, the expected pace of play depends on how early you go off--for the first 1/2 hour of times it's 3:40, for the next 1/2 hour it's 3:50, and after that it's 4:00 (which is our max pace of play policy at all times).  People end up self-selecting and there's a general message that rounds can be played faster than 4:00. 


Second, we time all rounds during typically busy periosd and post the times in the most conspicuous place in the locker room.  People definitely talk about who played a slow round, and repeat offenders get letters with warnings about losing privileges.  I'm not sure if anyone has lost a privilege over slow play. 


As a result, we never have slow play during our busiest times (weekend mornings).  When we experience slow play, it's usually during the week and the result of a group with several guests and a member who doesn't play much or isn't willing to push his/her guest.

[James Brown]

Move all the tee boxes up one box but keep all the colors the same. 


Space the tee times out to 12 minutes.

James: with all due respect, that's bullshit. Why not dumb down the game even more and allow only 3 groups per hour?

Golf is not supposed to be easy. If people want an easy sport, I suggest walking or jumping jacks or tiddlywinks.

The question was how to speed up play. 


Part of the reason play is so fast in Great Britain is that the courses are not so log, the greens are not so fast, and there are not many places to lose balls.  The courses are also not nearly as crowded for the most part. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Move all the tee boxes up one box but keep all the colors the same. 


Space the tee times out to 12 minutes.

James: with all due respect, that's bullshit. Why not dumb down the game even more and allow only 3 groups per hour?

Golf is not supposed to be easy. If people want an easy sport, I suggest walking or jumping jacks or tiddlywinks.

The question was how to speed up play. 

Part of the reason play is so fast in Great Britain is that the courses are not so log, the greens are not so fast, and there are not many places to lose balls.  The courses are also not nearly as crowded for the most part.

I've played a LOT of golf in Britain... the reasons the games are often faster are:

• Matchplay instead of strokeplay
• Two-ball courses instead of four
• Tight routing
• Lots of foursome games in UK
• US players playing out every hole for handicap score

When I've played in fourballs in the UK it takes just as long as it does in the US... usually a minimum of 4 hours.

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