[Tim_Weiman]

Brad Klein,

Perhaps I should not as a Princeton man comment on the politics of Yale, but from what I know of things in New Haven I'm not so sure President Clinton - not Bush - might be able to help.

Aside from all the particulars of the golf course, there is the entire university political environment to deal with. Given the long standing labor tensions, any project at Yale - even if an alumnus makes a specific contribution to pay for it -might make the administration uncomfortable.

Speculation? Of course. But, Clinton might be able to contribute his "triangulation" skills to help smooth the way.

P.S. Almost everything we do here is "indulgent"!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am just stating the obvious that i too liked Brad's article alot. He said what many courses/supers/greens com. needed to hear. He picked a well known but maybe not seen by many people course to critique. I am glad he gave some insight into the eyes of a rater too.

[Dan Kelly]

The above specualtion (by others) regarding involvement by former Presidents Bush and/or Clinton is simply indulgent and irresponsible.

Irresponsible? Care to explain what you mean by that?

[Brad Klein]

Irresponsible as in speculative, baseless, without accountability, phantastical; not as in recklessly threatening to do harm. But such wild and unfounded musings exaggerate the level of interest, involvement, knowledge, experience and influence such people (Bush, Clinton) have in these matters.

[Dan Kelly]

Irresponsible as in speculative, baseless, without accountability, phantastical; not as in recklessly threatening to do harm. But such wild and unfounded musings exaggerate the level of interest, involvement, knowledge, experience and influence such people (Bush, Clinton) have in these matters.

Thanks. Seriously. Not so seriously:

I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me: Yes, my musings (as advertised!) were speculative, baseless, without accountability, phantastical. That's what I *liked* about them!

Oh, well.

[Tim_Weiman]

Well, Bill Clinton did take enough interest in golf architecture to have a statue built of him playing at a famous course.......

[Brad Klein]

Dan, I know, I agree with you. Wishful thinking is very powerful. Sorry to squish your fantasy life, it's much more fun to think what could have been.

Tim, I think the Ballybunion statue is a testament to Clinton's ego and vanity, not his love of architecture.

[Tim_Weiman]

Brad,

I don't know that the controversial Ballybunion statue is testament to Clinton's ego. It may be more about all politics being local. Many Irish people are deeply grateful for Clinton's effort on the Northern Ireland issue.

Then, too, it does mean something when an American President visits a small town on more than one occasion. The first visit may have been a photo op, but how do you explain his quiet follow up visit not long ago?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Brad,

Geoffrey and I played with a Yale professor yesterday, and he was aware of your article, and owns two of your books. The word has gotten out. I think it has made people think and now I hope they will react in a positive way.

Architectually speaking, there are two courses out there today. Roger Rulewich was simply a bad pick for This Course. His style, training and heritage do not fit a 1920's CB Mac/Raynor course. I recently saw some of his bunkering (I did not know it was his while playing) work out at The Mill River Club on Long Island a 1960's Cornish course that was recently completed by his firm. It was very well done. I would seriously recommend him to Cornell if they were to do work at the RT Jones course up there.

Yale made a bad pick, let's be true to the heritage of this landmark course, and fix it. Drop the egos, fix the course.

PS. On a positive note, I hear nothing but good things about Scott, I hope to meet him before the winter. By the way, I actually like the clubhouse.

[Forrest Richardson]

Geoffrey,

I agree there is a more dramatic bank in your examples. (Your Yale photo would look better with the slope in the shadow!)

[Mike_Cirba]

Forrest;

It's more than the shadowing.

Please take another look at the Road Hole bunker at each of these courses and understand that it's not only meant to be steep on the greenside...it's meant to be a pot bunker with steep angles around it's entire circumference.  It's meant to be a gathering bunker.  It's meant to be penal and fearsome and having an inherent quality that sucks away strokes.

This isn't a picture show that means to demean the Yale "restoration" effort.  I've seen the work first-hand and it's curiously unsympathetic to Raynor's work at best, mysteriously unprofessional at worst.  I've seen better bunkering by many amateur architects without exaggeration.  It's horrid, and I'm truly perplexed at how Mr. Rulewich can let it stand as an example of his work.

I've played a number of his original courses, and liked some of them (i.e. Ballyowen, Metedeconk National) a great deal.  I have no personal or philosophical issues with him, but simply as a fan of great architecture, I'm truly perplexed and baffled by what I see being created in the name of restoration by an otherwise well-respected architect.

It's mind-boggling, to say the least.

[Forrest Richardson]

Your photo (the photo) of Yale's bunker would look better with shadowing.

Agreed, nonetheless, that it is not the same, nor as dramatic, as the other bunker photos.

It's disappointing that Roger's work is not well received by all. Someday I hope to visit Yale at which time I'll be more informed. I was recently at Tom Sawyer's Island (Disneyland) and was not at all thrilled that the secret passageway from Ft. Wilderness to Injun Joe's Cave had been closed in favor of a namby-pamby cave of just 40-feet in duration.

[Mike_Cirba]

Forrest;

I do hope you have the opportunity to personally visit Yale, and I believe you'll be similarly baffled by what's being created in the name of "restorative' course features.  

But, more importantly, I'm confident that you'll also find yourself inspired by the "bones" of what Raynor built there, which makes the present situation even more "disappointing" in that context.

It's analogous to bits and pieces of "Waterworld" interspersed into "Dances with Wolves".  Incongruity doesn't begin to describe it.  

[GeoffreyC]

Forrest-

No trick photography was involved here.  There was no deception meant.  I wish I had a photo of that Road Bunker from construction photos of the course.  I do know that players were frequently forced to play out backwards and sideways. That's hardly the case now.  It doesn't take shadows to see that the bunkers at Piping Rock and NGLA have slopes approaching 1:1.  The walls are STEEP!  The Yale Road bunker has slopes more like 4:1 or 5:1. They are SHALLOW. It takes an actual slope to make a shadow like those in the other photos   . Moreover, the floor is raised from its previous incarnation and the gathering features are absent.  It is a mess that is a microcosm for the whole bunker project.

Please come up to the Yale Course any time you are in the area.  I'd love to show you around.  Bring your flak jacket.

Mike Sweeney-  You go boy!  A public declaration of your thoughts is nice to see.  I think the Yale administration is going to see that its not just a crazy lunatic mad scientist who is critical of their efforts. I'll buy you that flak jacket you will need for Christmas.

Forrest-  What do you think of the newest work on #16? Does that reflect the Raynor style?  There is a nice shadow to emphasize the depth and slope      

[Forrest Richardson]

I am sure Seth, occasionally, loved the beach.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein, Geoff Childs & George Bahto,

Wasn't the original first green, two seperate green concepts, that have since been removed ?

And, wasn't there a substantial mound in the middle of the second green that no longer exists ?

Other then bunkers, are there any plans to restore some of the lost green features ?

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

The first green itself is intact as built except perhaps for a bit of recovery of lost space on the fill pad that can be mowed. The punchbowl aspect of the left side of the green requires proper restoration of the front left bunker along with its mounding that hid most of the flagstick.  

The 2nd green was substantially altered by Harry Meusel in the name of "more accurate putting"   .  George has researched this and discovered a FANTASTIC photo of this old green with a view back down the shared first and second fairways.

There is some thought to restoring the double punchbowl 3rd green (see photo in George's book).  Heaven forbid that Roger Rulewich try that one.  We'll probably get something like the 12th at GCGC  

The 16th green is also not original and all remnants of the old greensite were bulldozed away recently (see my photo above). There was a ridge across the 6th green that was removed (more then one person I know remembers this feature).  The old 18th green also had an obvious ridge through it from the old photo that George discovered.  There are no plans that I am aware of to restore these features. I find its interesting that George finds all this stuff during his research and Rulewich is the one they keep to do the work   . What the hell are they thinking up there?

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey;

Was Harry Meusel the long-time superintendent who did a number of ill-advised changes I've heard spoken of?  What years did he make those changes?

[GeoffreyC]

Mike

Yes. He was nice enough to document all his changes.

I'm not sure of the exact dates but I believe through the late 50's and early 60's. Funny that I believe this overlaps with the time RT Jones' two sons attended Yale.  I've heard stories about RTJ "making some suggestions".  Could it be?

[marbleman]

Geoff wrote:
 

I find its interesting that George finds all this stuff during his research and Rulewich is the one they keep to do the work. What the hell are they thinking up there?

School ties.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff Childs,

Was GBS correct ?

[marbleman]

Geoff Childs,
I played at Yale a few days ago. Two observations: 1. The road hole bunker is fairly deep and it doesn't look like there is enough elevation change to deepen it, nor is it tucked into the green ala your photos of others.  2. The parking lot was full.

[GeoffreyC]

Marbleman

Are you trying to say that you approve of the road bunker specifically and the rest of them?  

Do you think the Yale Golf Course is fully restored now that you have seen the results of the entire bunker project?

Do you think that shots from the current road bunker can be played to any pin location on that green?

Are you saying that the Piping Rock and NGLA versions of the Road Bunker are hazards that play with equal or less difficulty as the Yale bunker?

Do you know what the Yale Road bunker used to look like?

Your point about the full parking lot was?  

[marbleman]

Geoff,
No, I was just saying that I don't think the RHB could become any deeper, steeper yes. The quality of the remaining bunker work is poor.

As to the parking lot being full: it vindicates those happy with the status quo, at least in their minds.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I believe these would be the evidence the various sides might cite as evidence concerning the work at Yale

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