Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)

[Duncan Cheslett]

I think the hope with Coul Links was it would encourage more people to stay in Dornoch and the area around it rather than in Inverness and doing the day trip. At the moment apart from at the club not too much spend occurs in the area.Jon

Could not this be accomplished by the upgrading of the Struie course? Robin Hiseman appears to have had ambitious plans for the Struie which never came to full fruition.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/royal-dornoch-struie

[Thomas Dai]

I think the hope with Coul Links was it would encourage more people to stay in Dornoch and the area around it rather than in Inverness and doing the day trip. At the moment apart from at the club not too much spend occurs in the area.Jon

Could not this be accomplished by the upgrading of the Struie course? Robin Hiseman appears to have had ambitious plans for the Struie which never came to full fruition.
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/royal-dornoch-struie

Given they've got the ££££ for a new Clubhouse you'd think they could find a way to also spend some £££ on upgrading the Struie. One location with two courses - the current Championship and an upgraded Struie - ought to mean not just more greenfee money but also more folks staying overnight nearby to play both courses.
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I agree totally Duncan but somehow this seems not to be such a priority. I would also doubt that it would have the same pull factor that Coul Links would have had.

[Bryan Izatt]

Lou,


The summary of the ruling indicates that they did consider the economic benefits but decided against the project anyway. 

"Overall Summary of Findings

26. In terms of sustainable development, the reporters conclude that the proposal is consistent with Scottish Planning Policy’s (SPP) strong support for economic growth, rural development, growing communities and tourism, a key growth sector in the Scottish economy. However, because of the potential significant adverse effects on protected habitats and species at Coul Links, the reporters consider that the proposed development runs contrary to SPP’s emphasis on protecting natural heritage sites and world-class environmental assets. Therefore the reporters do not consider that it would contribute to sustainable development. Overall the reporters consider that the proposed development is contrary to the development plan, as the likely detriment to natural heritage is not outweighed by the socio-economic benefits of the proposal. Scottish Ministers agree with these findings.

27.   Para 212 of SPP sets out that development that affects a SSSI should only be permitted where the objectives of designation and the overall integrity of the area will not be compromised; or where any significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated are clearly outweighed by social, environmental or economic benefits of national importance. Scottish Ministers agree with the Reporters findings that the local and regional socio-economic benefits of the development do not justify the adverse effects on the qualities of designation of the SSSI, SPA and Ramsar."

Just a reminder that Trump has created relatively few jobs at Balmedie -  77 staff, 41 in food, beverage and accommodation,10 in golf operations, 15 in grounds, and 11 in administration. No hotel and no housing so far.  Coul would likely have been less in the way of socio-economic benefits than Trump Balmedie.

As to whether there would have been economic benefit in the Dornoch area, that may well have been true.  But, would that have been at the expense of other areas of Scotland.  Or, did you think that Coul would have generated net new golf tourism to Scotland on its own accord.

If you had seen Balmedie from before the course, you would know that it is an entirely different ecological site. I don't recall Coul looking anything like this when you and I looked over the fence a couple of years ago.  And this is a view of one of the smaller moving dunes at Balmedie.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I agree totally Duncan but somehow this seems not to be such a priority. I would also doubt that it would have the same pull factor that Coul Links would have had.

What was the view of Royal Dornoch to the prospect of the new course on their doorstep?


If they saw it as an opportunity why not develop the Struie themselves to fulfil the same purpose?


If they saw it as competition and are secretly pleased to see it fail that’s another story altogether.

[Sean_A]

I agree totally Duncan but somehow this seems not to be such a priority. I would also doubt that it would have the same pull factor that Coul Links would have had.

What was the view of Royal Dornoch to the prospect of the new course on their doorstep?

If they saw it as an opportunity why not develop the Struie themselves to fulfil the same purpose?

If they saw it as competition and are secretly pleased to see it fail that’s another story altogether.

I'd be surprised if RDGC took an official position on the matter not that their opinion matters.

Dornoch is in the curious position of being a local club and an international destination club. It must be difficult to balance the two.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

IIRC the "club" were supportive although whether the GM and Club Captain had a remit to speak for the membership of the club, I do not know.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that a new course in the area would necessarily default to taking away from money spent elsewhere.

Its quite possible there are some groups who skip the area due to just having the one course, and would then consider traveling there with an overnight stay and do so in additive fashion.

Its also plausible some would forgo rounds in a place like St. Andrews due to over-crowding/inability to get a tee time, and now choose to spend more time in a remote area like this...actually playing golf.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Here is something else to consider:


If Coul links had been built and sucessfull it would only have taken away traffic and revenue from other areas.


Only so much in the pot and as another thread say's Scotland is sinking fast. It might be the multitude of not so good courses going under but it would raise the bar.


Scotland does not really need any new golf courses.

These are just assumptions and we all know what "ASSuME" means...;-)


Questions:


1. When Sand Valley opened did it takeaway golf revenue from Kohler or Erin Hills in Wisconsin or did it make Wisconsin a more compelling golf destination over Michigan or northern Minnesota or Pinehurst - all which have seen millions invested recently?


2. Would Coul have taken golf revenue away from other "hub locations" (Ayrshire, etc.)? Yes, perhaps, that was also the goal. Other areas or "hubs" have seen multi-million $$ in outside investment in the last 10 years. Dornoch was losing hotel revenue YOY and the developers sought to reverse that.


What's wrong with playing a bit of offense in a competitive market?


The situation was simple: Perry Golf vans (as an example) ferried the tourist players up to Dornoch from Inverness (or wherever). They let them off in front of the pro shop and met them 5 hours later with box lunches or meals prepared elsewhere.

So, these 12 golfers spent a bit of money at RDGC, but ZERO in the town.

No restaurants, no hotels...squat. RDGC driving revenue for themselves, but not for the town. With Coul, the idea was also simple:

- perhaps these golfers would stay 1-2 nights. Eat dinner at local restaurants, stay in local hotels, buy souvenirs in the shops as they played another round at RDGC, one or two at Coul and one at Brora, Tain, Golspie or Skibo (gulp$).

- RDGC does around 12,000 visitor rounds per year last i checked. Great for the club, not as great for the town. If those vistors stayed in the area to play more, then the economic benefit would flow through.


Keiser has a well published track record of making his courses global destinations.

[Adrian_Stiff]

IF COULS brought more people to Scotland then I would agree it is good.


The Golf tourist market in Scotland is primarily driven to a few destination areas. The Dornoch area is certainly not in the top 2 and probably just outside fifth.


The Americans come to Fife, East Lothians, Ayrshire on their first three goes.


The amount that may go very North is much slimmer and they tend to want old not new.


Overall I don't see new business. Anything generated would be theft from another zone.


With the current situation in the UK of over-supply I am more tended to agree with the planning decision on economic grounds.


Just my opinion....

[David_Tepper]

"The amount that may go very North is much slimmer and they tend to want old not new."

Adrian -

I do not agree with your statement. There is no doubt (in my mind at least ) the creation of Castle Stuart has helped increase golf tourism in the Highlands significantly. I expect the manager of the Kingsmills Hotel in Inverness would corroborate that. 

As far as old vs. new, the success of Kingsbarns answers that question pretty definitively.

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am not saying no one plays new courses.


My main point is MORE Scottish golf business wont be generated.


The main draws are still the big ones. If Couls drew golf business it would be stealing it from another area. I don;t see an American really coming to Scotland because of Couls.


Would Couls have been good for the very North? yes

[Bernie Bell]

US links seekers have many choices in addition to Scotland.  It's a fallacy to think that the proposed development would merely have poached from other destinations in Scotland. 

[Sean_A]

US links seekers have many choices in addition to Scotland.  It's a fallacy to think that the proposed development would merely have poached from other destinations in Scotland.

I disagree. Its fairly common that golfers come to the UK or anywhere else for any other leisure purpose have a set number of days they are willing to stay. Sure, some are persuaded to stay longer than the initial plan. But it's a bit of dream to think most golfers are adding days to play a course rather than making hard choices to fit the alloted days. Hence the reason you get psycho trips with guys spending half their time behind a windshield.

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

Sean -


I didn't explain my point well.  I don't think groups start with, "where do we go in Scotland?," especially if they've been there before.  The Highlands are competing for that group with Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Devon, Cornwall, etc.  I think the proposed development would have made it more likely that tourists stayed in Dornoch, or stayed longer in Inverness, and made it more attractive for a group that is looking to drop anchor and avoid the psycho road trips.  Whether that increase would be for good or ill, and whether the  environmental cost is acceptable, is for the citizens to decide, not me.  But I think it's a fallacy to think the hypothetical "lost dollars/pounds" stay in Scotland.

[David_Tepper]

More grist for the mill:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/2037685/councillor-challenges-opponents-to-coul-links-to-provide-an-economic-alternative/


https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/coul-links-golf-course-developers-stunned-by-planning-refusal-and-say-decision-was-politically-motivated-192397/

[Jason Hines]

Bernie is making a valid point here as I am in the middle of figuring out of what to do this summer.  Bandon is in play for Americans looking for a links experience, most consumers of golf don’t really care about our definition here of true links golf – they just want the experience.  I am in the middle of the US and it is just as easy to fly into SNA with US customs vs. getting to Bandon.  Cabot is now in play for Nova Scotia to escape the summer heat.  Throw in Coul Links and Inverness is easy threw Schiphol and to me preferable to the hoards in the summer in East Lothian and St. Andrews. 
IMHO – Coul would have enhanced the pull of Scotland.  Either way, life goes on.

[MClutterbuck]

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that a new course in the area would necessarily default to taking away from money spent elsewhere.

Its quite possible there are some groups who skip the area due to just having the one course, and would then consider traveling there with an overnight stay and do so in additive fashion.

Its also plausible some would forgo rounds in a place like St. Andrews due to over-crowding/inability to get a tee time, and now choose to spend more time in a remote area like this...actually playing golf.

My group had planned on a 5 day stay at Dornoch based on the new course at CL. Those plans have gone. The decision will cost the area.

The most painful part about this decision is that the site will not be left natural. It will be degraded further. I would have valued the decision better if it provided funds to convert this into a Natural Park and buy it back from its owners. Politicians...

[MClutterbuck]

IF COULS brought more people to Scotland then I would agree it is good.


The Golf tourist market in Scotland is primarily driven to a few destination areas. The Dornoch area is certainly not in the top 2 and probably just outside fifth.


The Americans come to Fife, East Lothians, Ayrshire on their first three goes.


The amount that may go very North is much slimmer and they tend to want old not new.


Overall I don't see new business. Anything generated would be theft from another zone.


With the current situation in the UK of over-supply I am more tended to agree with the planning decision on economic grounds.


Just my opinion....

If you think SCO does not complete with other countries, you are wrong. I am talking just one group, but this decision just changed our planning in favor of a different country. And yes, we have a 2021, 2023, 2025 plan in place. 2023 just changed.

[Niall C]

Here's a suggestion for the Councillor, why not extend the caravan park and develop chalets and family accommodation at affordable rates. That way, rather than hit and run golfers rushing round the country to play Open rota type courses, you will get families and groups spending time in the community and spending money in shops, cafes, pubs etc. The beauty of this cunning plan is you don't need to bulldoze a SSSI/RAMSAR site to achieve that. But then I suspect the local Councillor is doing exactly what he's accusing the government of doing, and that is playing politics.

Niall

[Niall C]

The most painful part about this decision is that the site will not be left natural. It will be degraded further. I would have valued the decision better if it provided funds to convert this into a Natural Park and buy it back from its owners. Politicians...

Marcos

How on earth can building an 18 hole golf course be less "degrading" of nature than leaving it to it's own devices ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Marcos

Another question - you weren't tempted by Dumbarnie ?

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Here's a suggestion for the Councillor, why not extend the caravan park and develop chalets and family accommodation at affordable rates. That way, rather than hit and run golfers rushing round the country to play Open rota type courses, you will get families and groups spending time in the community and spending money in shops, cafes, pubs etc. The beauty of this cunning plan is you don't need to bulldoze a SSSI/RAMSAR site to achieve that. But then I suspect the local Councillor is doing exactly what he's accusing the government of doing, and that is playing politics.

Niall

Niall,

The same reasoning can be used here as well.  Building more caravan parks and chalets will just take away from other areas and won't add anything net new...

[MClutterbuck]

The most painful part about this decision is that the site will not be left natural. It will be degraded further. I would have valued the decision better if it provided funds to convert this into a Natural Park and buy it back from its owners. Politicians...

Marcos

How on earth can building an 18 hole golf course be less "degrading" of nature than leaving it to it's own devices ?

Niall

Cows. Hunting. ATV´s.  Thousands of examples around the world.

[Bernie Bell]

If the caravan plan were all that cunning, someone would have committed their own capital to it already, perhaps to capture larger numbers of the touring lepidopterists.  I read the Green fellow's message to the locals as simpler: "Learn to code."