Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)

[Kalen Braley]

Kris,

Who woulda thunk it??  Building a handful of golf courses is the cause of all the worlds major ills.

[jeffwarne]

Kris,

Who woulda thunk it??  Building a handful of golf courses is the cause of all the worlds major ills.

Kalen,
He brings up some very interesting and perhaps valid points-he's certainly respectful of the proposed developer.
There are a LOT of underutilized links courses in the UK, and courses in the world in general-not sure every remote piece of land should be a candidate for a new remote course.
And golf is DEFINITELY not on the fastest path to sustainability, unless you consider ever longer courses, ever faster greens, ever increasing maintenance, ever rising equipment costs, the massive SCALE of nearly all high end modern projects, all steps in the right direction.
I'm not on anyone's side here, just think considering contrary points of view(however seemingly extreme) is important.


Then I can at least feel better about being a hypocrite

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I'm with you on this one and I appreciate his insight and passion on the topic.

But his last post I think does more harm than good in some ways by taking it to that level....

Whats next?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_JPcBwYGmo

[Jon Wiggett]

Kris,

Who woulda thunk it??  Building a handful of golf courses is the cause of all the worlds major ills.

Kalen,
He brings up some very interesting and perhaps valid points-he's certainly respectful of the proposed developer.
There are a LOT of underutilized links courses in the UK, and courses in the world in general-not sure every remote piece of land should be a candidate for a new remote course.
And golf is DEFINITELY not on the fastest path to sustainability, unless you consider ever longer courses, ever faster greens, ever increasing maintenance, ever rising equipment costs, the massive SCALE of nearly all high end modern projects, all steps in the right direction.
I'm not on anyone's side here, just think considering contrary points of view(however seemingly extreme) is important.


Then I can at least feel better about being a hypocrite

Jeff,


yes Kris does raise some very valid points but also states points with great conviction as fact which are not correct. For instance, he claims 'If you drive into the higher ground, the land becomes more stark, less capable of supporting the larger beasts.'  This is factually wrong. The remote higher areas of Sutherland supports a thriving population of red deer which is the largest game animal in the UK. This is something that along with his shouting does lessen the points he is making.
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[/size]Jon[/color]

[Kris Shreiner]

Kalen,
You historically have been one of the more intelligent posters on here, so I'll just assume you are having a bad hair day...along with that other chap who has issues with what's up there near that part of the body. 

A final thought. I probably have about as much understanding of placing a modern,  NEW BUILD,  links golf course, in concert with SSI areas as anyone on here,  who wasn't ACTUALLY involved with creating the Machrihanish Dunes project.
If there has been a more responsibly done links project,  in ANY era, with regards to what was ALREADY there, I want to hear from any of you out there where it was done....ANYWHERE in the world. I'm waiting...
I'm talking about regular monitoring  of the entire project with governmental, scientific ovetsite.
That's what occurred there.
And this is a site that just primarily focused on SSI locations with unique plantlife.
 You know, that don't : move much, need a parent to nurture them,  have places to breed or  rest, and escape predators as they migrate, etc etc.
I was flown over there from the US, in 2008,, at owner Brian Keating's request and expense,  WELL AHEAD of the course being finished,  to discuss creating the caddie program and outside presentation in generall,  for the visiting "retail" golfers that was their target client.
I spent 5 days there. Worked with the grow-in team. Walked the ENTIRE course area several times, extensively, with Euan Grant, the VERY talented grow-in supetintendent, and one of the finest, most thoughtful, bright people I've ever met. He came from St.Andrew's to assist David McClay Kidd and the team,  to carefully tease out a links routing from that sensitive ground. I remained in touch with him quite a bit as the project evolved from there.
I played Machrihanish. I  took the time to play the absolute wee gem that is the par three heavy, "golly golf"  fest that is Dunaverty, and squeezed every moment I could to immerse myself in what  was there. In totality, from an community experience perspective.

What I found there at THAT Machrihanish Dunes site was right at the very edge of RESPONSIBLE links golf course creation in a sensitive, coastal environment.
I've seen the ground at both. firsthand. I have no vested interest in gaining ANYTHING from that Embo site.
 MD was not an estuary situation of that scale.  The diversity of inhabits is less than that EMBO site.
 By a fair measure, beauty etc. , the two sites are not really in the same class.

 And that is the BEST comparison out there....and why it is a NO GO if one is honest about doing the right thing!

That area of Kintyre is MUCH quieter economically  than the Dornoch Highland area.

If still more golf is needed up there near Dornoch, a rather dubious claim, there is plenty of OTHER ground to create a links- like expetience.
 As I said earlier, there are farmland sites, similar to the Castle Stuart project....that worked out well, fom all accounts I read on here and elsewhere.
To the cries ( not mourning moonbats ) of ....well, it's not true links ground and it would ( hold back the DEEP gasps here!) cost MORE to build on such a site....what a shame!!
And Mr.Keiser,  and others,  will run that inconvenient excuse right up the Coul Links has to be on that site flagpole.
Cause it's EASIER to push around some birds and degrade a unique environment with a sandy base,  than to do it in the CLEARLY more appropriate place....one that ALREADY has been significantly degraded by man.
It's about cost and profit.
 So the proponents can dance around reality all they want. In the end, it's about financial gain and ego, NOT the most responsible choice.
That's my take. It comes from a soul who has lived a life of golf, the outdoors,  AND a profound reverence for our natural world.
You can make your own decision.
I,  for one, will NEVER put a peg in THAT ground, on a NOT COOL LINKS. If it was #1 in the world and I could play for free. To do so would be the height of hypocrisy.

Nuff said,
Kris

[Kalen Braley]

Kris,

I should have been more specific, I was referring to this part of your previous post on page 4 that seemed over the top:

When I KNOW what her lyrics meant to convey, yet need to dig, to find proof to explain that Joni Mitchell's BIG Yellow Taxi was NOT about the glorification of "modern society" and that superb economic gain that is the be all and end all for SO many on here; that's a window to the collective apathy.
Mankind  is now enjoying RECORD : mental illness, obesity,, drug and alcohol addiction, air and land pollution, fouled water( bottled water in disposable plastic anyone!), declining golf numbers  (GASP!) and a host of under undesirables.
If you think a MAJOR disconnect from our natural world isn't a significant factor in all of this, you better head to a padded cell.


P.S.  For the record, I actually am very pro oversight on these kinds of things as they relate to building new courses.  I think its important to ensure good decisions are being made with all stake holders in mind. 

[Kris Shreiner]

Jon,
That's ONE species my friend! I said " less capable," with regard to that environment's carrying capacity of numerous, different big game animals.
If you'd bother to absorb what I wrote above that line, that remark was tied to the MULTIPLE
varieties of higher order mammals of a Yellowstone, or more DIVERSE species environment.
Tell me four more high order  game mammals that have lived up there NATURALLY  in the last 200 years? Sorry champ, ya can't. They have been EXTERMiNATED, or that environment ceased to have the required means to sustain that diversity within that ecosystem.
Try to assimilate the context of my overall  thoughts,  instead of select cherry picking to criticize, for what aims ...I don't know?
This topic has lost the plot.

Cheers,
Kris

[Ian Mackenzie]

I just do not understand how  - in the face of SNH, HIE, et. al - that one single person can anoint themselves the expert, the arbiter, the moral compass and the standard bearer of all that is correct for a new links construction site....anywhere.

I have but one small suggestion: Please let the good people of Embo and Dornoch sort this out for it is their issue and opportunity and not yours.
 If the local sentiment is against the project, if Brora and Golspie  resent the very notion of a new course, if the SNH determines that the process is too invasive, if the feasibility studies come back negatively, then the sound judgement of the local decision-making bodies will no doubt prevail. If not, then I dont think the developers want to do something that is counter to local wishes.
 
 But, unless you bring new ideas for the economy or new thoughts that represent the sentiments of the residents, I suggest (again) that you respect the will of the good people of Sutherland. Or, as the latest NT article says, when the public hearings begin, please tell us how you will take this well-intended passion and make it heard in a venue that actually matters and not just on some internet chat forum where hiding behind a keyboard, instead of standing in front of an audience, does not really accomplish much.

The "plot" remains alive and, again, you are not the judge in that area either.
We have heard your passion. Now, as someone has already recommended, let's wait until there really is a project to discuss. That might be in a year or two. So be it.

We all have listened and, thanks to Kris, we may have a better understanding of the environmental sensitivities. I do for sure. But, the local authorities and interested parties have a process and it is one that does not involve the people on this site. Let's give them some respect first and judge later for NO ONE deserves to be judged before any action has been consummated.

[Kris Shreiner]

Ian,
Sorry you don't like or agree with what you are reading.
I gave AMPLE ideas on how to BETTER approach both this project, and the marketing of what ALREADY exists up there. What are you adding to the discussion other than some bleating for me to shut up and go away?
Variety is the spice of life. That includes thoughtful opinion. Sorry to disappoint you.
Cheers,
Kris   

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,
Sorry you don't like or agree with what you are reading.
I gave AMPLE ideas on how to BETTER approach both this project, and the marketing of what ALREADY exists up there. What are you adding to the discussion other than some bleating for me to shut up and go away?
Variety is the spice of life. That includes thougjtful opinion. Sorry to disappoint you.
Cheers,
Kris   

Thanks, Kris. I learned a lot in this thread and am appreciative.
As Americans, we have overstayed our welcome on an issue here that does not directly involve us. Let's respect the process of others and see what happens.


All the best,
Ian

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,
You historically have been one of the more intelligent posters on here, ...

Wow, you really lost me with that one.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
You historically have been one of the more intelligent posters on here, ...

Wow, you really lost me with that one.

Cmon...Garland, you know my IQ is 140+   

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,
That's ONE species my friend! I said " less capable," with regard to that environment's carrying capacity of numerous, different big game animals.
If you'd bother to absorb what I wrote above that line, that remark was tied to the MULTIPLE
varieties of higher order mammals of a Yellowstone, or more DIVERSE species environment.
Tell me four more high order  game mammals that have lived up there NATURALLY  in the last 200 years? Sorry champ, ya can't. They have been EXTERMiNATED, or that environment ceased to have the required means to sustain that diversity within that ecosystem.
Try to assimilate the context of my overall  thoughts,  instead of select cherry picking to criticize, for what aims ...I don't know?
This topic has lost the plot.

Cheers,
Kris

Kris,


just exactly which big game animals have been eliminated by a lack of habitat. Here in the UK the only naturally found native larger game animal is red deer but this animal has no problem and is indeed thriving as I already said. Other than that the only other largish sized game animal still about is the roe deer though the wild boar used to roam the land but this was eliminated by farmers and land owners due to the amount of damage.


So, there are the only three native game animals the UK has had during the last 10 millennium so that is the reason I cannot mention 4 which kind of backs up my point about you blustering about thing as though they are fact when you are patently wrong. What other game animal did you think there would be? and for goodness sake stop shouting.


Jon

[Kris Shreiner]

Jon,
You are trying so hard to use semantics to discredit me. I admire the effort. Why?
The only reason I brought that point into the discussion was in reference to another poster wondering what was there at that Embo site, in comparison to larger wild areas like US National parks.
Did I ever state there were hoards of different game animals in Scotland?
And you use ONE species to try and make a case...a pathetic one I might add. Please.

When I asked you to name four more, it was to convey how FEW of anything like that is there.

The Scottish Wildcat, a top predator of the region, and subspecies of the European Lynx, though exceedingly rare, also exists in northern Scotland. It is heading for extinction, probably less than 200 purebreed wildcats remain,  according to latest estimate figures given on the scottish wildcat website. There has been some controversy as to the methodology and validity of the approach some in the scientific community are utilizing to try and save them. It may be too late.
Because the cat is so reclusive, and recent studies lacked the funding to do more extensive, comprehensive fieldwork, exact numbers  vary according to the source, and are difficult to assertain. But they are falling, that's for sure.
 Habitat loss (imagine that) has been cited as the historical reason for the wildcat's dwindling  numbers, though interbreeding with feral cats, degrading the gene pool purity, has become a serious concern of late.
Among the most imperiled cats in the entire world, I believe it is the subject for the club logo at Royal Dornoch. If so, how ironic.

 The wild boar, by your own admission, was exterminated.

That leaves two deer
species...about the most adaptable game animals on the planet. What diversity!

Give it up. Sadly, that Embo site is about as wild as Scotland has left.
If the foolish approve it, and I have full confidence they will, I'm sure you'll be there for opening day to toast the MASSIVE success that Embo site project will bring to the Highlands. Enjoy the triumph.

Cheers,
Kris

PS- ALL CAPS is shouting in my book. I haven't gone there yet.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kris,


my point was the lack of habitat is not the issue with the lack of larger wild animals in Scotland or the UK as a whole. Wolf, wild boar, bear have all been hunted to extinction because of the threat they posed to livestock and people. It had nothing to do with a lack of habitat. As for the wild cat, yes it appears it is really struggling and this is possibly due habitat constraints though the experts also admit that due to how reclusive the wild cat is it is and how remote much of its potential habitat is the best they can do is guess at the numbers. It is interbreeding with domestic cats that appear to pose the biggest threat in the end. I just find your big animal comparison to the US somewhat spurious and irrelevant.


I agree that SSSI sites should be generally left alone but is Could Links all SSSI or just parts of it? In the end any sort of development that will increase the local economy needs to be looked at very seriously. It is all very well and fine for those who visit the area for a few weeks each year to want to keep all as it is but in the end it is the locals who's lives are affected day to day who should decide


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Wild boar....careful. WB are big and angry, don't take prisoners and like rooting around including trashing golf courses......and there may well be more of them about than you reckon - http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/index.htm?map2.html - the meat makes tasty sausages however. 😊
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Wild boar....careful. WB are big and angry, don't take prisoners and like rooting around including trashing golf courses......and there may well be more of them about than you reckon - http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/index.htm?map2.html - the meat makes tasty sausages however. 😊
Atb

Thomas,


I have been unfortunate enough to come face to face with an angry wild boar in the south of France and it is not an experience I would wish to repeat. The amount of destruction they can cause in one night is quite mind boggling. There are some people who would like to see it re-introduced to the UK but hopefully they will be blocked.


Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Boar are a huge problem for golf courses in European locations where they live. Castiglion del Bosco in Tuscany is right next to forest that's teeming with them, and has had to fence off the entire golf course -- if a couple of boar get onto the course they wreck an entire fairway in one night. That said, at Castiglion, they have a special licence to shoot the boar if they get on the course, in season or not. And then they put them on the menu -- salsicce dei cinghiale, quite delicious.


Vidauban in France had a similar problem. Only there they call them sanglier. Still tasty

[Kris Shreiner]

Jon and Adam,
Nice try gents. I hunt. I'm well aware of the damage wild boar can do. They are fast multipliers, largely nocturnal, and difficult  to control   once they establish in most terrain. 
It doesn't change the fact Jon, I was 100% dead on....that species was exterminated.
The Scottish Wildcat used to range down to England. It's habitat has shrunken...drastically in more recent times, as human pressure reduced the size of the habit it needs to function properly. It's not maybe Jon, it's irrefutable!
The feral cats issue, again class
..was brought to the region by the Red Deer. No, it was humans who have them as pets.
The bear, wolves and other "problem" animals you suggest are killed because they are a threat to man or livestock etc. have been here as long as we have. Longer in some cases, perhaps.
We CAN coexist, but man needs to respect their requirements enough to not degrade the habit to such a degree, or shoot them all, for them to survive.
Take black bear, for example. A large omnivore, it has a very stable and healthy population in Pennsylvania. A heavily populated state. The black bear there include some of the largest specimen's in the world. They are well- managed and hunted. We can get it right. Often do.
But certain species are more sensitive to habitat or human pressure Impacts.
Machrihanish Dunes, the example I pointed to as really the limit for doing it right with close proximity to SSI, had mainly plantlife as the sensitive species. You can rout delicately amongst them in many cases, and unless hackers are: slashing at them, trampling them, or taking them home as gifts, they will probably be OK with some monitoring.
That Embo site has more birdlife centered concerns. They move, need varied requirements to breed or feed, etc etc. ....in short, a whole different proposition. Even if you aren't right on top of them, there are issues due to that nearby intrusion.
Then the estuary proximity and flooding function enters into the equation.
The stunning NATURAL beauty of that location provides another reason to just leave it alone.
Look, I have ZERO personally against anyone on here, or this project. The development team are fine people, and their approach is usually top notch, by every measure, in my view.
 This situation is special, they are missing something on that one, at present. And that is being  thoughtful enough to accept the fact that sometimes, even if it could be THE site, to build the best links golf course in the world, the responsible thing to do is leave it be, and look for a different site to create.
And they shouldn't need bird studies or a government approval, local or above, to recognize that. It's simple common sense.
But the potential to profit, or put something in a place as a monument,  often clouds the judgement. And that's what is currently occurring here.
Cheers,
Kris

[Kris Shreiner]

It pains me to say this, but the cat on the logo of the Royal Dornoch shield is the Sutherland Wildcat...basically the Scottish Wildcat.
I want to thank the many posters who brought me to doing a bit more homework. I was aware of the cat, and knew it wasn't doing well. I had no idea the true, critical state of peril it was in.
I need to reflect, but this really complicates the issue.
When those that claim to love and respect something, yet are proposing to put an "economic growth driver" into basically what should be a protected coastal area, that will most certainly aid all that comes with it, in hastening the potential extinction of the iconic, living symbol of the club and region.....we have a problem.

Cheers,
Kris

[Kalen Braley]

Kris,  I too did a little looking around and found this publication about Scottish Wildcats...

Wildcats live in habitats that satisfy two main requirements: shelter and food.
Woodlands and areas of dense gorse or juniper thickets provide shelter
and resting places. Young forestry plantations in particular are an important
habitat for wildcats because they are protected from grazing and support a
high density of small mammal prey. Rocky areas also provide den shelters for
female wildcats during the breeding season.

Wildcats require open patches of habitat, such as pastures or riparian areas,
for hunting. However, when moving around their territories, they prefer to
avoid open areas, using woodland or scrub and stream edges for cover.
Heavy snow makes it difficult for wildcats to move around or catch prey, and
if there is deep snow on the ground for long periods, wildcats will move to
forested areas or lower altitudes, where there is typically less snow cover.

The Scottish wildcat will venture to an altitude of around 800 metres but it
is not generally found higher than 650 metres. It avoids heavily urbanized
areas, areas of intense agriculture and exposed coasts.

The habitat used by the Scottish wildcat differs regionally. In the east of
Scotland, wildcats prefer the margins of moorlands, pasturelands and
woodlands, whereas in the west they prefer uplands with rough grazing and
moorlands with limited pastures. These differences are due to the type of
prey and cover available in these areas. For example, low rabbit densities
in the west of Scotland mean that the wildcat needs to hunt voles and mice
that are found in greater concentrations in areas of rough pasture, scrub and
woodland edges.


http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/naturallyscottish/wildcats.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

For a different perspective on this, the past two days, I've driven Highway 1 up north from San Francisco, with my wife.  At Fort Bragg, there is a great old industrial site right on the cliff tops, not being used for anything at all, most likely because it would fall under the purview of the California Coastal Commission and they won't let anything be developed there.  Further north, there was some of the most beautiful land I've seen for a golf course, but of course, you can't build a golf course on the coast in California.


My own wife tells me I'm nuts for thinking that golf courses should be built everywhere.  But I'm not trying to justify everywhere ... I just think it's crazy when people start saying you can't build here, or there, or there, or anywhere that's beautiful.  Scotland and Ireland are all the proof in the world that golf can coexist well with Nature.


I tried to explain to my wife that the reason I have to fly all the way to New Zealand to build a beautiful course [or to Mexico where I'm going to look at a site next week] is only because those clients aren't allowed to develop their course near where they live in California.  God forbid that Scotland goes the same way that Ireland and Europe have gone in that regard.


I'm very open to the idea that there are sites that shouldn't be developed, but that argument can only be made on a case by case basis, and should involve more than just people saying "Not In My Back Yard."  Or, not in your wife's parents' back yard, as the case may be.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Amen to that, taken that drive a few times myself and completely agreed.  There is plenty of space to build a course or two and totally keep the rawness of the place intact.  I've lost track of how many they've built in Bandon now and the wildness of the place is still entirely intact.

P.S.  Tough break on the wife's viewpoint there...can't even get support from your favorite gal !! 

[David_Tepper]

While the Coul Links property is 3 miles north of Dorncoh, it is worth noting that a new stretch of links/dunes land is developing/enlarging to the south of Dornoch. If you stand on the 16th green at Royal Dornoch and look south over the beach towards Tain, the beach is clearly wider and the dunes land reaching into the Dornoch Firth is much larger than it used to be. Who knows, maybe that could be a site for a course in another 20 years.    

The buildup has been noticeable in just the 12 years I have been visiting Dornoch regularly. So much sand is accumulating in the Dornoch Firth that it is almost possible to walk to Tain when the tide goes out. I do not know where the sand is coming from, but I suspect some of it is coming from the beach at Golspie that has been eroding.   
 

[Kris Shreiner]

Kalen,
What startling revelations are in that information? It is a reclusive, mixed cover, edge hunter.
It's historical range has been compressed greatly to where it now struggles for it's very existence.
I assume that bold text was meant to convey significance.
What..that its avoids heavily urbanized areas...what did you expect it be stalking the streets of Inverness?
C'mon, where's the context?

Tom,
Really, you are going to try and get a few cheap digs in? Well, fine then, you have plenty of company on here.
I never have held the view you couldn't build a golf course anywhere it was beautiful...to start with.
Second, my remarks on that Embo site have been anything but a broad brush verdict of no new links golf anywhere. And ANYBODY who read what I've written, digesting it with any objectvity at all, wouldn't make the feeble claim you have.
As to my now deceased inlaws, they were two of most solid individuals in that town.
Dr John , the town doctor,  a member for 50 years, was a KEY figure of that club. A past Captain, he also was deeply intertested in it's history, and the connection of the club to the town.
What started as a curious delving into some past records, evolved into writing a superb club history.
He finished the book shortly before his passing.
During that period of his writing the book, the almost two years I was fortunate  to know and spend time with him, we became quite fond of each other, and shared A LOT of conversions about the game and Royal Dornoch. They were quite in-depth,  and he offered many astute observations from an individual who knew the town, AND his club as well as anyone.
Those invaluable insights, and other information I absorbed interacting with longtime, mostly local members, have stayed with me.
They are the bedrock from which I form my views on Dornoch and the club.
Things change, but the timeless, essential elements for maintaining something special do not.
I was a member there for 10 years. I came over as much as I could. THAT Royal Dornoch is as good as it gets.
I care about Dornoch as much as anyone on here. That's why what is being championed at that EMBO site is so disturbing. It will destroy the specialness of that site. The ripple effect might bring more quid, but it will ruin the vibe in that Dornoch area forever!
If you don't think I'm right, or don't care, that's your choice.
But your slights add ZERO.

Cheers,
Kris