The truth about the wind strength and playability

[Mark Chaplin]

The big Easter competition at Royal Cinque Ports was won by our very own Dan Moore who along with fellow GCA'er Dave Herrick have been making regular Easter visits to Deal. Congratulations Dan!

So the wind, it was a very breezy weekend with the wind averaging 30mph at times and gusts to 50mph. Strong but playable, the Easter Cup was won with 40 stableford points, remarkable score as the remaining field of 60+ could only reach a maximum of 33 points. So 30mph gusting 50mph is very playable. The club has an accurate wind speed device.

This morning we have winds between 40-50mph gusting 70mph+ and the course is "open" but the competition is cancelled. There are trees down on the main road to Dover as well. We are sheltered so I wouldn't be surprised if it reached 80-90mph on the hills to Dover.

The course at Worplesdon is closed, I think health and safety is an issue. We've had big trees crash down on the course before.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yet another data point showing the issues with Open maintenance practices, in particular foolish decisions, like Daw-tree's to flatten TOC 11, to attack the architecture rather than to adjust conditioning eg reduce green speeds.

Thanks for this Mark.

[Tom_Doak]

So the wind, it was a very breezy weekend with the wind averaging 30mph at times and gusts to 50mph. Strong but playable, the Easter Cup was won with 40 stableford points, remarkable score as the remaining field of 60+ could only reach a maximum of 33 points. So 30mph gusting 50mph is very playable. The club has an accurate wind speed device.

Was the ball steady on the greens?  And how fast were the greens?


I'm just curious to know the limits of competitive play.  I've played golf in high winds several times, but not when I had to sign for a score.

[Sean_A]

Set aside the issue of green speeds because this is small beer in the big picture.  The top consideration  is time of year.  30mph in winter is far more forgiving around Deal than in the summer with tha horrible rough. Loads of links are far more enjoyable on a nice winter day than in high summer. 


Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

 I played a Stableford at North Berwick last June, during which the anemometer on the Starters hut recorded gusts at 53 knots. It was never less than half that.

 The ball only moved on one green but on the seventeenth tee I though I had been hit by buckshot. It was gravel ripped off the cinder path. ON the 18^th tee I picked up my bag and despite my 'solid' build, I  nearly kite surfed down the hill.
 
2/3 of the field retired to the bar and the third for my group never showed at all.
I played with a Junior and apart from being close to having a lost ball on 8, he hit it straight all day. He was off 5 and returned 82 or 10 over the normal SS ( I never learnt if a CSS was declared for the day).
I was proud of my role in encouraging him to just keep going and he did play the back 9 close to par downwind.
 
He was 10 shots better than the next score returned, but being a Junior it counted for nothing!
I was also pretty pleased with my 106 (Off 13) only 5 shots worse than another Junior who was playing off scratch.
 
 
(PS I had a match arranged for Deal today but my oponent, who played yesterday, saw the forecast and talked me out of it!)

[Tim Gallant]

I played a Stableford at North Berwick last June, during which the anemometer on the Starters hut recorded gusts at 53 knots. It was never less than half that.

 The ball only moved on one green but on the seventeenth tee I though I had been hit by buckshot. It was gravel ripped off the cinder path. ON the 18^th tee I picked up my bag and despite my 'solid' build, I  nearly kite surfed down the hill.
 
2/3 of the field retired to the bar and the third for my group never showed at all.
I played with a Junior and apart from being close to having a lost ball on 8, he hit it straight all day. He was off 5 and returned 82 or 10 over the normal SS ( I never learnt if a CSS was declared for the day).
I was proud of my role in encouraging him to just keep going and he did play the back 9 close to par downwind.
 
He was 10 shots better than the next score returned, but being a Junior it counted for nothing!
I was also pretty pleased with my 106 (Off 13) only 5 shots worse than another Junior who was playing off scratch.
 
 
(PS I had a match arranged for Deal today but my oponent, who played yesterday, saw the forecast and talked me out of it!)

I may have played in that same medal. I played one last year at NB where the group behind us walked off on 8 green! The third in my group retired on the 11th. Half the morning field had a NR.


I battled my butt off and shot a 100 I think (or 101). I honestly concentrated on every shot and couldn't do anything against the wind and driving rain. The kicker was that as we got to 18, the afternoon groups were heading out and the wind softened, so it was a counter...daggers!

[Ken Moum]

In 2013 my wife and I played Dunbar and North Berwick on back-to-back days, with similar wind on both days. We talked to  the Secretary at NB after the round and he said the starters hut anemometer hadn't been below 25 all day.


The round at North Berwick wasn't competition, but I did manage to get up and down from 80 yards once with a 4 iron.


Dunbar OTOH, was a mixed foursomes, and I can tell you playing back to the 16 green into that wind was "interesting."


It's roughly 35 yards from the wall to the ocean, and the wind was into us and slightly off the right.


The fact that we had a chance to play the final seven holes in even 5s was one of the best competitive stretches my wife and I ever played. Sadly I screwed up our third on 18 and we finished with a 6.


To the point of the thread, it astounded me, and pleased me no end that there were dozens of couples out playing in the event that day.


Where I have played over the years getting 10 teams for a foursomes event is a challenge, and with that weather I'd bet my wife and I could have the course to ourself.


American golfers, for the most part, are pussies.


Ken

[jeffwarne]

I played a Stableford at North Berwick last June, during which the anemometer on the Starters hut recorded gusts at 53 knots. It was never less than half that.

 The ball only moved on one green but on the seventeenth tee I though I had been hit by buckshot. It was gravel ripped off the cinder path. ON the 18^th tee I picked up my bag and despite my 'solid' build, I  nearly kite surfed down the hill.
 
2/3 of the field retired to the bar and the third for my group never showed at all.
I played with a Junior and apart from being close to having a lost ball on 8, he hit it straight all day. He was off 5 and returned 82 or 10 over the normal SS ( I never learnt if a CSS was declared for the day).
I was proud of my role in encouraging him to just keep going and he did play the back 9 close to par downwind.
 
He was 10 shots better than the next score returned, but being a Junior it counted for nothing!
I was also pretty pleased with my 106 (Off 13) only 5 shots worse than another Junior who was playing off scratch.
 
 
(PS I had a match arranged for Deal today but my oponent, who played yesterday, saw the forecast and talked me out of it!)

i
Is it any wonder Americans has zero shot at playing a handicapped match against one established in this matter?
(Not defending one system or the other)
Such a score would simply be thrown out in the US system-best 10 out of 20
Certainly would be in the best interests of a player under the UK system to keep going so the score gets entered


But what happens to that scratch that shot 101 when he attempts to enter a large competition where a low handicap is required?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it any wonder Americans has zero shot at playing a handicapped match against one established in this matter?
(Not defending one system or the other)
Such a score would simply be thrown out in the US system-best 10 out of 20
Certainly would be in the best interests of a player under the UK system to keep going so the score gets entered


But what happens to that scratch that shot 101 when he attempts to enter a large competition where a low handicap is required?

Any kid on Silicon Valley [or in the back offices of Wall Street] could come up with a fairer handicapping system than we have at present.  All you'd need to do is take all the data from scores returned on the day, less the handicaps of the players, and compute a daily course rating and slope, so scores in difficult conditions would be counted fairly.  Arguably those are the most telling scores we post, and at present they just throw them out.

[Simon Holt]

I played a Stableford at North Berwick last June, during which the anemometer on the Starters hut recorded gusts at 53 knots. It was never less than half that.

 The ball only moved on one green but on the seventeenth tee I though I had been hit by buckshot. It was gravel ripped off the cinder path. ON the 18^th tee I picked up my bag and despite my 'solid' build, I  nearly kite surfed down the hill.
 
2/3 of the field retired to the bar and the third for my group never showed at all.
I played with a Junior and apart from being close to having a lost ball on 8, he hit it straight all day. He was off 5 and returned 82 or 10 over the normal SS ( I never learnt if a CSS was declared for the day).
I was proud of my role in encouraging him to just keep going and he did play the back 9 close to par downwind.
 
He was 10 shots better than the next score returned, but being a Junior it counted for nothing!
I was also pretty pleased with my 106 (Off 13) only 5 shots worse than another Junior who was playing off scratch.
 
 
(PS I had a match arranged for Deal today but my oponent, who played yesterday, saw the forecast and talked me out of it!)

i
Is it any wonder Americans has zero shot at playing a handicapped match against one established in this matter?
(Not defending one system or the other)
Such a score would simply be thrown out in the US system-best 10 out of 20
Certainly would be in the best interests of a player under the UK system to keep going so the score gets entered


But what happens to that scratch that shot 101 when he attempts to enter a large competition where a low handicap is required?

Hi South Island Jeff,


Not in any way to defend our system since a hybrid of the two would be far better than either on their own, but in this case the competition would be a non-counter.  If the standard scratch at North Berwick goes over 75 (+3 over the norm) then its a non-counter for handicap, with reductions only.  The scratch guy wouldn't go up.  Even if he did it would be a maximum of .1, no matter what his handicap or score.


There actually lies a big problem with our system.  If a guy plays off 3 (2.5) goes through a big slump, he has to play 10 counting medals to go up 1 full shot to a 4 capper, where if he had logged his scores in GHIN he would be much higher.  Once you get low it's very hard to go back up again with the handicap secretary doing you a huge favour.

[BCrosby]

I have played golf in the snow, in strong rain, in blinding fog and several times in complete darkness to finish a round. I enjoyed playing in all of those conditions. 

I recently played in a 40 mph wind. Staying still enough to address the ball is a problem. Making yourself heard to playing partners is a problem. Hitting any sort of lofted club requires a sense of humor I do not possess. I have no desire to repeat it.

There is such a thing as too much wind. For those who believe playing in 40 mph + winds is a test of manhood (or something), have at it.

I'll see you back at the clubhouse.

Bob

[Sean_A]

I have played golf in the snow, in strong rain, in blinding fog and several times in complete darkness to finish a round. I enjoyed playing in all of those conditions. 


I recently played in a 40 mph wind. Staying still enough to address the ball is a problem. Making yourself heard to playing partners is a problem. Hitting any sort of lofted club requires a sense of humor I do not possess. I have no desire to repeat it.


There is such a thing as too much wind. For those for who believe playing in 40 mph + winds as a test of manhood (or something), have at it.


I'll see you back at the clubhouse.


Bob

Si


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Thanks Simon,
Did I mention the beer is colder there?.....on the boats......


30 mph steady wind IS howling, especially with 50 mph gusts.


Many Americans frequently describe their UK rounds as having such winds, but that's a really strong wind.(50 mph gusts)
Last year at Dunfanaghy we had similar weather-30mph sustained(not sure gusts were 50 though) and I felt my 10 over round was the round of the trip. We played on a competition and about 1/2 retired on a suny day.
The ONLY reason it was playable is that the greens had not been cut in two days at least, but putting was beyond difficult.(lagging from 5 feet-and having to decide on a 3 footer whether to go for it or try to tap closer)
In that round I was blown down twice while swinging and just ticked the top of the ball twice (tee shots went about 20 feet)
I hit a driver on a 131 downhill par 3 and did not reach.
On the seventh(highest point) I laid down behind a rock marker while my companions hit as I couldn't stand up.I quickly chipped a driver to avoid whiffing and to get off the tee. Then hit a chip 5 iron from about 70 yards. The hole is 180 downhill.


A course such as Dunfanaghy is somewhat playable in such winds, many would not be as Sean points out with the ever more prevelant high grass, and many that have adopted "modern" (err stupid) green speeds, would not-at all.

[Dave Herrick]

To Mr. Doak's inquiry about how fast the greens were at Deal yesterday, I am a poor one at trying to put a Stimp number on a green speed. For point of comparison with a course whose usual speeds he might be familiar with, the speeds seemed to be about the same as at Commonground when I played that course a week ago. The balls at Deal were commonly wobbling on the greens, and a couple of times a ball at rest would then decide to take a leisurely stroll down and off the green. It was not unusual that replacing a marked ball would entail several attempts, to get it to stay in the same spot. Upon my return to the clubhouse I noted that the maximum speed recorded to that point in the day was 59 mph.

[Jason Topp]

Congratulations Dan!

[Eric Smith]

Congratulations Dan!

+1

Well played, sir!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Congratulations Dan!

+1

[Michael Whitaker]

One of the windiest days I remember playing is during our Buda Cup at Silloth. We played the 9th hole from 121 yds and the most popular club choice was 3 iron! Never heard the official measured velocity of the wind, but here is a video taken that day that shows how strong they were:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgiqXeYMEus

[Thomas Dai]

In one of Dave Pelz books there's a section about measuring wind strength by hanging a thick, heavy length of metal chain. The further from vertical the chain moves then obviously the stronger the wind, but heavyweight chain doesn't move easily.


Always interesting to see how wind effects putting and chipping. Not many players seem to allow for enough shortgame movement in windy conditions, and the effect on spin as well.



Atb

[Bill_McBride]

Based on my one round at Princes, I think that course would be unplayable, or at least difficult to finish, in winds like that.  The wind was across on almost every hole, with thick rough on dunes separating the fairways.  Even in relatively gentle zephyrs we had to start tee shots well out over the ankle deep rough, and spent a fair amount of time ball hawking. 

[RJ_Daley]

So Dan "Windy" Moore with Mr. Kelly coming into 5th Major on the windswept sand hills, the prohibitive favorite... 

[James Brown]

Has anyone ever calculated a score vs. wind speed curve?  I would think the architectural implications would be quite interesting.  Far too many modern courses are all but unplayable in more than 25 mph.  Whereas, many links are quite fun up to 40 in my view. Over that is hit or miss. 


I played Machrihanish once in 40 mph winds and light rain that I could barely stand up in and had an absolute blast. 

[Doug Siebert]

I love playing in a really strong wind. Some of my favorite memories are from the windiest round I ever played, by far, at Lahinch, and another rather windy day at Ballybunion (the 7th green was barely puttable, but damn it was a lot of fun!)

You can't get that around here, because the only time the wind blows that hard there's either a storm, a storm five minutes away, or its winter. Even if you could play, you'd risk getting conked on the head by a falling tree branch.

Maybe we'll have some crazy wind in the 5th Major this year. The Nicklaus might be dicey with all the forced carries and blind shots, but I think Doak's course would stand up to that level of wind pretty well.

[Mark Pearce]

One of the windiest days I remember playing is during our Buda Cup at Silloth. We played the 9th hole from 121 yds and the most popular club choice was 3 iron! Never heard the official measured velocity of the wind, but here is a video taken that day that shows how strong they were:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgiqXeYMEus

It must have quietened down when you played the 9th that day.  Everyone in our 4-ball (including Jeff's assistant pro!) hit a wood.  A great day's golf.

[Mark Pearce]

There actually lies a big problem with our system.  If a guy plays off 3 (2.5) goes through a big slump, he has to play 10 counting medals to go up 1 full shot to a 4 capper, where if he had logged his scores in GHIN he would be much higher.  Once you get low it's very hard to go back up again with the handicap secretary doing you a huge favour.

Simon,


CONGU rules allow clubs to adjust players' handicaps if they fail to play to their handicap over a significant period.  My home club reviews every playing member's handicap each winter and adjusts a number up by a shot or two.  Strangely, most members who receive an extra shot or two are appalled, despite having failed to play anywhere near their previous handicaps for months!