[BHoover]

Looks like you were playing pretty well during your singles match, Criss. Nice work!

[Joe Zucker]

I’ll echo what Ron and Criss said, Wolf Run is a really good course and it’s a really hard course.  It certainly lived up to its billing and I think that is OK once in a while.  Not every course has to be all things to all people and Wolf Run is definitely not a course built for a low ball flight.  But as Criss pointed out, there is usually a way to avoid the trouble if you plan ahead on the tee.   The only course I have played that is harder is Erin Hills, but that is probably a function of the length and more undulating greens.  Wolf Run requires the player to hit good shot after good shot after good shot.  Below are my thoughts on specific holes:

#1 – That is a fun tee shot to start the round off.  If you’re hitting the ball less than 275, there is tons of room to the right, which I guess would be Wolf Run’s version of a “gentle handshake” opener.

#6 – My favorite par 3 here.  In my morning match the hole was won with a 5 and in the afternoon it was halved with a 2.  The green is very shallow and slants hard right to left.  If the tee shot is aggressive and left, it leaves a pretty easy uphill putt.  Anything long or right leaves a nearly impossible up and down or a very fast downhill putt.  This hole requires a precise short iron with no room to be lazy, as being on the green doesn’t mean it was a good shot.

#8 – The angle of the hole seems too severe for me.  To hold the fairway (and not lose a ball), the tee shot has to be moving right to left or be within a few yards of the left tree line.  The tee shot would be appreciably better if it could be moved 10-20 yards to the right.  Eight was one of my favorite greens on the property with the plateaus and run offs, giving it a very “classic” look. If the tee shot were a little straighter this hole could blend in on a many of the older courses we praise.

#10 – Without much wind this weekend, the strategy of this hole was negated in my opinion.  The clear play was to bomb it over the bunkers, but if the wind were in your face a little bit, it would be a tough decision and the hole would play very different going with the left fairway.

#13 – This was not as bad as I thought it was going to be.  Criss pointed out that the kick plate on the left is a big help if you know it’s there and you’re playing from the proper tees.  The one thing I did not like was the shaved hill on the back side of the green.  The average player is hitting a hybrid or fairway wood that probably won’t check very well.  It seems excessively penal to have balls roll all the way down a closely mown slope on a well struck shot.  I would cut the back side at rough height to give a player who hit a good shot that didn’t hold the green a chance to save par with an uphill chip.

#15 – The drive is very tight for a hole of this length and difficulty.  In theory, you can hit it out to the right away from the creek and the ball will feed down leaving the player 200-220 in.  In practice, I could not get the ball to roll down the slope and it stayed up top making the hole unreachable in two for me.  If I had to improve this hole, I would cut some trees down on the right side of the landing area and maybe soften the steep bank in front of the green so shots coming up short don’t roll all the way to the bottom of the hill.

Overall, the greens are pretty tame at Wolf Run. There are a few with steep slopes, but everything seems to be one directional and could be read from the fairway.  I did not see as much subtlety in the greens as I would have liked, but maybe it is hiding and I haven’t played enough rounds.  I would be curious to see what others thought of the greens.  Tee to green the course is so tough that it seems like the putting surfaces and surrounds are overlooked here.  It was a blast to play and a fun weekend with fellow GCAers, thanks to Jason setting it all up!

[Donovan Childers]

Jason, Has the Future of the course been decided?

[Ken Fry]

To All Mashie participants, thank you.  What a great weekend!  To those I didn't get a chance to say good-bye to, thank you and hope to see you all soon.

Thanks to Jason Thurman for his tireless prep and to captains Criss Titschinger and Peter Korbakes for their efforts in organizing groups and scorecards.

I'll jump in with comments about Wolf Run.  I believe the one thing to keep in mind in this discussion is who the opinion is coming from.  I say this because of the way Wolf plays for different people.  The course is hard, yes, but playable if you can manage your ball properly.  Everyone needs to manage their ball and their game in their own way:  i.e. playing to a particular shot shape, weighing the risk vs. reward for pushing a poor position, maximum carry distance, typical ball trajectory, etc.  The more times I play Wolf the more I'm finding how certain holes play easier or harder depending on the tees you choose.  Also, I'm finding which holes I need to play a bit more conservatively off the tee with less than a driver and where I can afford to be more aggressive.  Again, the beauty of Wolf are the holes I may feel an opportunity to play aggressive may be another players conservative holes.

Hole#1 - A great opener with options to be aggressive or conservative with appropriate rewards for each.  I now feel the play off the tee for me is a #3 wood from the grey tees and driver from the back tees.  It's too easy for me to drive through the fairway on the right which is a big no no.

Hole #2-An exacting par 3 tee where selection makes a huge difference for players of varying abilities.  Hit a solid shot regardless if it's from 135 or 210.

Hole #3-I find this hole is actually an easier tee shot from the back tees because the bend of the fairway doesn't come up on you as quickly as from the middle tees.  Still, manage your ball for a good birdie opportunity or miss the green and have a difficult save.

Hole #5-Many players list this as their favorite hole.  Not for me.  From the middle tees the tee shot is very tight as the proper line is just to the side of the right bunker or a carry over the bunker.  A straight away tee shot will run through the fairway making for a really difficult approach.  Again, the back tees make for an easier tee shot allowing the use of the full width of the fairway.  Phenomenal green site but borderline extreme with the right to left slope.

Hole #8-I disagree with Joe Zucker on his take of this hole.  All three rounds I teed off with a #3 wood.  This left me 155-165 to the pin.  The fairway is generous in the landing area.  A driver MUST be drawn around the corner for someone like Joe.  Restraint is rewarded on this hole.  From the back tees, driver is a must as the carry over the creek is around 260, but if you're playing a 7200 yard course, you should be able to handle that carry.

Hole #9-Again, from the middle tees, I've found #3 wood works best for me.  The dogleg comes up quickly with anything more.  The back tees just off of #8 green make this a beast of a hole where your drive must be center to right center for a clear shot to the green.  I love the green sight although others may feel the raised nature and saddle placement of the green site overly punishes players who have a low ball flight.

Hole #10-The middle tees make the tee shot to the raised, right fairway quite straight forward.  From the back tees, that becomes a much more daunting decision and with any headwind becomes very difficult.  Playing down the left is not difficult but you better be committed to your line either way.

Hole #11-My favorite hole on the course.  I find a tee shot challenging the bunkers down the left opens up a better angle to the green.  I like how the green is set into the hillside again requiring a very exacting approach shot managing distance properly and green contours.

Hole #13-My least favorite hole on the course.  I've never liked the aesthetics of the hole.  All the bunkers serve no purpose in my opinion.  The playability has changed over the years.  When I first played Wolf in the mid 1990's, the back tees required a carry of about 215.  Keep in mind what equipment was like then.  My club options were a 2 iron or 3 wood.  I never could find a way to hold that green.  Fast forward to now and technology has made hitting that green easier.  It's still hit and hope, even trying to use the kick plate.

Hole #14-It's hard.  So what.  I play a #3 wood from the middle tees and a driver from the back.  Hit the fairway on your drive then execute a solid shot without letting the fronting water get in your head.

Hole #15-The more I play this hole the more I'm convinced for me the tee shot is a solid #3 wood.  Driver brings so many problems into play the farther down the hill you go.  From there, hit a 200-210 shot up the hill to the front of the green.  Yes it's hard but not impossible.

Hole #16-I love a little drop shot par 3 playing from 80 yards to 125 yards that can get in your head like this.  Any hesitation and funny things happen on the tee shot.

Hole #18-An appropriate finisher for this course.  There's more room down the right than it looks and is the preferred line yet everyone tries to hug the left side.  Anything over there dives into the hazard.  The approach demands an all carry precise shot to a heavily guarded green.  ANYTHING short will be lucky to find a bunker.

Overall, there is a ton of emphasis put on your tee shots.  Again, manage them well and you can score well.  Get wild and pay the price.

Ken

[Jason Thurman]

Ken, it took me at least a dozen plays before I figured out the play on 15 for me. I didn't par it the first 15 or so times that I played it. I've now parred it 3 of the last 5 times around.


The challenge to the tee shot is that the target for a driver is tiny - a little flat landing area at the bottom of the hill surrounded by hazards and trees. But with the fairway running out at 300 yards on a hole so long, taking 3 wood and leaving 200 yards in isn't all that satisfying either.


I've learned that a low trajectory driver with a little draw lets me land the ball in the widest part of the fairway, and on a downslope that feeds the ball a mile. I tee it low and hit a shot that carries maybe 210 yards or so. The slope in the landing area not only sends the ball rolling, but also funnels it toward Position A. I've had as little as 9 iron into that green on the firmest and fastest days out there.


Now, a low-trajectory draw with a driver isn't the easiest shot in the world. It's hard to make the case that a hole is playable if it demands a shot that most higher handicappers probably don't have. But the result for me isn't all that different than the result that Criss got when he hit his driver there Sunday. The ball comes off the driver a little lower for him than it does for some bomber with 120+ mph swing speed. He doesn't carry it far enough to be worried about landing one within the confines of the tiny flat spot at the bottom of the hill either. His shorter, lower ball lands right in the area of the downslope, and a good swing off the tee gives his ball the same friendly bounce that my "knockdown" driver gets me. The result puts him in a spot where another good swing will let him reach the putting surface. The par he made Sunday was a great one, but it wasn't a fluke. I would argue the tee shot is difficult for all, but fractionally easier for a player who doesn't carry the ball a mile if he plays it wisely and makes a confident swing.


I should also add that I'm not a particularly good player myself, and the "knockdown driver" is a shot that I didn't have until I started playing at Wolf Run regularly. I hit the ball a little straighter now than I used to, but when I joined Wolf Run I was an utterly awful driver of the ball as opposed to the decidedly mediocre and inconsistent driver of the ball that I've become. In order to enjoy my rounds there, I had to learn to keep the ball in play. The "knockdown driver" is a shot that the course taught me. I started trying it after spraying the ball all over the place in the club championship last year when I had a pretty rough time in qualifying for the flighted division, and an even rougher time in my first match when I took a drubbing that would have made some players walk off the course. I went back to the club the next day determined to find some kind of safe shot for days like that, and with the winds blowing and the course playing ridiculously fast, I tried teeing the ball low and making a 3/4 swing. It worked like a charm, and by the time I reached the fourth tee I had a shot that I knew I could keep in play on the tougher tee shots on the course in a pinch. It's a handy shot on holes that don't require a big carry like 4, 9, 12, and 14, although I don't use it as often on those holes as I used to now that I'm capable of hitting more than two or three fairways in a round. But I still use it on 15 almost every time, and I still know that I can use it on most holes on most courses in a real pinch.


There are some courses that I'd love to play every day. Wolf Run is not one of them. But it is a course that has clearly made me a better player by teaching me how to find ways to get the ball into the hole in a way that few other courses do. And that's what makes it different than a lot of hard, purely penal courses. It's as tough as any course in the world, but it still encourages creativity while so many hard courses just stifle it. Even the night putting green demands thinking outside the box!

[Ken Fry]

Jason,

What you're saying about 15 demonstrates my point about the course:  who you talk to can change the strategy of how a hole plays.

I use to play 15 with a gripped down driver.  The ball would fly a little lower and carry less.  As the ball runs out at the bottom of the hill, that's where all the problems are.  In the club championship, I hit what I thought was a perfect drive to catch the right hill and feed down the fairway.  When I found my ball I was stuck halfway up the hill in deep rough blocked from a shot at the green.  For me, there's too much "hit and hope" with a driver into an area surrounded by hazards on all sides.  My #3 wood allows me to hang back from a lot of the trouble.  If that means I'm hitting a 3 or 4 iron in, so be it.  I'm just looking to make par on #15 and move on anyway.  Driver tends to bring in the chance of bigger numbers for me.

Now as far as the night putting green goes....

Ken

[Matthew Sander]

Nice posts gentlemen! I will echo the kudos to Jason and everyone at Wolf Run. I really enjoyed myself (even while bopping in and out to also partake in my 20 year high school reunion festivities - a twofer that I wouldn't recommend anyone try in the future) and am grateful to everyone for being so welcoming to my non-GCA brother, Bryan.


There has been some pretty in depth discussion on the course thus far. Many of my opinions fall in line with what has been said by several posters, but this is a discussion board after all so I'll blather on a bit.


Ken went to great lengths in his post to stress the importance of the tee game at Wolf Run. There is little if anything to disagree with there. I think I have experienced a few courses that were just as demanding off the tee, but not many. Many of the holes (at least at the length we were playing the course) not only favored distance, but also certain shot shapes. 5 and 14 for example truly favor a fade. Long straight balls there run the risk of running through the fairways, and a slight pull or draw on 14 could make the approach terrifiying.


In my opinion though, the unique difficulty of Wolf Run lies in the relentless challenge of the approach shots. For someone like me who is currently struggling with the iron game (actually, I am struggling with the entire flippin' game) the discomfort level on approaches is off the charts. The greens are small, and many are essentially must hits. That might be slightly overstated, but I am open to suggestions for a course that features greens that, collectively, are more difficult to hit.


What I find fascinating about Wolf Run is the juxtaposition of a brutal examination and fun. The course is hard no doubt, but it is loaded with fun golf shots. Of the handful of objectively difficult courses I've played, I can't think of many (or any) that offered so many challenging, but fun/unique shots. This theme is in part due to the design variety on offer. The property lends itself to a collection of golf holes where looks and challenges are rarely repeated. I won't mention other courses here, because singling them out isn't important, but many uber-difficult courses present an unrelenting sameness throughout. That is not the case at Wolf Run.


I'll join in with those praising the 5th hole. It is a great example of left to right off the tee and right to left into the green. Like Joe Zucker mentioned before, the visual of the approach to the 8th is really appealing. I believe it is also the most generous in its surrounds.


I'm always a little hesitant to be too quick with criticisms. I will briefly mention one thing though. I really don't like the inclusion of the hazard down the left side of 15 off the tee. That hole would still be all-world difficult without it. Circumstances may have dictated it's incorporation into the hole. Nevertheless, I think it brings a gratuitous poke in the eye to what is already a brawl. You have to pay the piper twice on that hole, with both the tee shot and the approach...and no matter how good your tee shot is, the approach is daunting.


If you prefer courses that continue to provide an opportunity for a measure of success while you are not playing well, Wolf Run should not be on your radar. I hate to trot out the following generic sentiment that has been repeated in this thread, but it is so apropos. I would not want an everyday diet of Wolf Run, but played on occasion it would remain a fun and interesting challenge.

[JWinick]

Regarding Wolf Run's future, I can put on my real estate / banking / development hat and give you my thoughts.    There is a $10MM offer to purchase the property.   It has not closed yet.    Most likely, the deal is subject to getting local approval from the town of Zionsville (which is not a pushover) to build lots of single family homes.  Is there a constituency of local people (i.e. environmental groups, farmers, golfers, etc.) that is powerful enough to fight this?    That is hard to speculate.  My parent's home club had a sale on the table to a major home builder that was nixed by a moratorium promoted by a rival developer.

The second obstacle is financing.    Most likely, you're going to need $30-50MM to do the site improvements and have homes ready for sale, and at least have pad-ready sites.   They could then sell those lots to builders or owner-users, but most likely they would need to build homes first.   [/size][size=78%] [/size]


Alot has to happen for this golf course to go away, but I can assure you, no one is paying $10MM for a golf course unless they intend to demolish it!

[PCCraig]

Regarding Wolf Run's future, I can put on my real estate / banking / development hat and give you my thoughts.    There is a $10MM offer to purchase the property.   It has not closed yet.    Most likely, the deal is subject to getting local approval from the town of Zionsville (which is not a pushover) to build lots of single family homes.  Is there a constituency of local people (i.e. environmental groups, farmers, golfers, etc.) that is powerful enough to fight this?    That is hard to speculate.  My parent's home club had a sale on the table to a major home builder that was nixed by a moratorium promoted by a rival developer.

The second obstacle is financing.    Most likely, you're going to need $30-50MM to do the site improvements and have homes ready for sale, and at least have pad-ready sites.   They could then sell those lots to builders or owner-users, but most likely they would need to build homes first.   


Alot has to happen for this golf course to go away, but I can assure you, no one is paying $10MM for a golf course unless they intend to demolish it!

JWinick,


Do you think the club could survive with only 9 holes? Do you think the club could abandon the back nine?

[JWinick]

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?   

[Josh Tarble]

Thanks again for arranging all of this Jason, it was another great Mashie.  Bummed I didn't get to play Saturday, but such is life. 



Not to be a contrarian on purpose, but the more I play Wolf, the more I just don't enjoy a few of the holes.

Let me preface that by saying I enjoy an awful lot of the holes and the entirety of the course.  It's just that it's bad moments put a real sour taste in my mouth.

#7; while a cool hole in theory, I just hate the fact that all the layups funnel into the same exact spot and leave you a little flip wedge.  It's nearly an identical shot to the tee ball on #16.  Perhaps if they weren't the exact same I'd feel differently.  I also hate all the sand bottles needed on the hole.

I think it may be dramatically improved by clearing trees on the left to give a view of the green.  That might make the hole very tempting to drive it.

#8; This hole offers no option on the tee shot, on one that could be so tempting.  I wish the view of the bunkers was opened up and tempted players into hitting driver.  Clearing the trees left would make this so much more interesting, instead it's like Ken said "it requires restraint" and also hitting one kind of tee shot only

#9; My dislike of this hole stems partly from how I play it but also because the tee shot is so much of a "target."  There is literally about a 10 yard area you can hit it and have a clear view/shot into the green

This is going to sound very repetitive but, I think a massive tree clearing effort to the left of the fairway would make this hole much better - only because it would tempt players into going left

Perhaps it's just because these three holes are in a row, but they are such target golf holes, without options, they leave me a little more frustrated than the rest of the course.

#15;  I think this is one of the worst golf holes I've played, again because it requires one very specific type of tee shot and even when executed, you can still end up in a shit position.  As Jason described it, a low running draw is necessary.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of carrying it 200-220 yards.  If you get lucky it will run off the hill leaving ONLY a 160 yard uphill approach to a green that runs away.  Worst case it gets stuck on the side hill and you have a downhill, sidehill 215 yard approach shot - to a green that there is 0 place to miss/lay up.  It's just too penal with too few options to be a good hole at all.  This is like #12's bigger, dumber brother.  At least #12 has more of a chance to lay up/hold the green/make a par/not make a 10

Again, I still really enjoy Wolf.  I think the holes are very unique, it's got a great routing and it's a fun place to test your game.  I think most of the course is based in strong strategic design concepts, albeit taken to the edge of play-ability. 

As Jason said it too, Wolf presents you with more "hero moments" than any other course I've ever played.  Even when failing, I can't wait to get back and try them again, knowing if I have just one more shot, I'll be able to pull it off.

[Jason Thurman]

Josh, 7 has never quite done it for me either. I do think there might be more strategy on the tee shot than you're giving it credit for - I take 3-5 iron more often than not, but in the past I've used a hybrid to get down to the end of the fairway, which sets up an easier angle of approach as it largely takes the creek out of play for anything but a big chunk. Approaching down the length of the green from further back in the fairway isn't arduous since you'll only have a wedge in hand, but anything that lands right of the green can easily end up wet so I've always preferred the angle from the end of the fairway. It's a much tougher tee shot though, and not one I was willing to try this week when I couldn't hit a cut. And ultimately there's just no way around the fact that you'll be hitting some kind of flip wedge after a good tee shot.


8 isn't a hole that I love either. As you mention, it's just a very difficult and penal tee shot. I actually think it works okay in medal play as a hole where the objective is to avoid disaster. In match play, the risk of a missed tee shot is so high that it's almost inevitable that someone finds disaster and is effectively out of the hole before you even make it across the creek, so it's a bit of a letdown. I actually think the left side of the hole is fine, but that the right side needs a little more room before the native cut comes in. With the low-lying area the hole occupies, though, that may not be realistic from a maint standpoint. I'd have to ask the keeper. I love the green complex, but too often find it to be an afterthought at the end of a slog.


For a guy like me who hits it adequately long but 30 yards or so short of where you and Pete put it, clearing the left side of 8 would put me at a big disadvantage as I wouldn't be able to take advantage of it in the way that you guys could. Likewise, the tee shot at 9 is just fine with me. I spent the better part of last year experimenting with everything from a driver to a 3 iron there, and eventually came to a conclusion. It's easy to get wrapped up in trying to find the perfect play at Wolf, but if often doesn't exist and there's always some amount of risk on any shot. But with 270 yards straight uphill into the prevailing wind (opposite of what we had this week, admittedly) from the gray tees to reach the treeline, I just take driver, swing smoothly, and let it turn over. When I really tag one I sometimes run through the the fairway, but usually also catch the downslope and leave only 100 yards or so for the approach. A leaker to right side is trouble, but I almost always find the ball and am able to pitch back to the fairway to set up a short wedge. And with the two big bowls in the green, I like my odds of getting up and down even from 80 yards or so. I've hit more very close approaches on this hole than any other, and watching the ball funnel in is a lot of fun. I do feel like the great green contours are almost wasted on a hole with so little room to miss - it's a shame that there aren't more opportunities to hit creative and aggressive pitch shots to such a cool green. But overall I like the hole, and I've now seen a noteworthy number of really good players hit really awful (i.e., topped) tee shots there. It's obviously a shot that gets in the head of a stronger player in a way that it doesn't for the weaker player, and there's something very compelling about that when you're the hack in the group...


Lastly, you mention the strategic design concepts in play, and that's something I mentioned briefly in the opening post of this thread even. One of the cool things about Wolf Run is that, if you squint, it's almost a Golden Age "tribute" course dialed up to 11 and engineered to test modern elite players. 1 is pretty much a perfect Leven hole as I understand it (and as Nigel pointed out to me). 4 is a pretty cool punchbowl, even if the native-heavy surroundings don't allow for as much funneling action around the green as might be desired. 5 is just a classic switchback hole - it's strategic design distilled into its simplest and most effective form. 6 is a Redan that plays like a Redan even from 145 yards and in rather soft conditions like we had this week. It's always fun, but really a blast when the wind is blowing and the course is playing fast. 7 is a pretty close cousin of North Berwick's Pit. 9 has more than just a hint of Alps-iness. 10 is like a remix of 4 at Bethpage with a bit of a Channel hole thrown in for good measure. 13 is a Chasm, and with some of the same appeal of a Biarritz for the player who uses the left side kickslope and watches their ball disappear in the trench before reappearing, even if it takes a 90 degree turn in the process that doesn't happen on a regular Biarritz. 16 isn't really a Short, but it IS really short. And 17 is one of my favorite holes of one of my favorite types - the Great Hazard par 5. It's a punishing course, but at least as strategic as it is penal. It's just never easy, even at its most strategic.

[PCCraig]

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

[Bill Seitz]

With regard to the kick slope to the left of #13, I noticed it on the first trip around.  But on the second trip around, as I tried to find a way to play it from the tee, the slope was almost entirely obscured by trees.  You'd have to take it really tight to those trees and risk disaster, or play a draw in order to use it.  Which I suppose gets back to some of Josh's criticism of some angles being over-treed. It's also not all that big of a target for a hole that plays 200+ yards.  Also, I think it was Josh who hit one that actually used the slope, and it kicked the ball all the way off the other side of the green. So it's a cool feature, but not very functional.  I like the hole (and I think the par threes there work really well as a group) but not because of that feature.

[Bill Seitz]

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

1-3, 7-9, 15-17 all sit pretty low to that creek (or at least portions do), and are almost certainly in a floodplain, as I think Josh mentioned while we were playing.  Might be pretty tough to build homes down there.  You could put a routing together that uses current holes (in order) 1-2-3-7-8-17-15-16-9 and I think it would flow pretty well.  The walk from 8 to 17 tee would be the longest walk at about 1,000 feet using existing paths/bridges, but if you cleaned some of that area up and added (or moved) a bridge, you could get that down to 600-700.  It would still start and finish at the current location.

[John McCarthy]

Bill:. During the Sunday round Jason I think aimed at the pin on 13, pulled it, it hit the slope and the ball came close-ish to going in.  The kick plate does widen the hole considerably. 

As I said last weekend, it is too much golf course for me and my game at the moment.  The greens and their surrounds are playable and fun, as long as you are not in the native - which I think there is too much of.  Geeenside bunkers seem a relief. 

However, I very much appreciate Jason putting this together.  The staff and the hospitality were wonderful. 

[BHoover]

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

Surely a skilled developer would not invest the time and energy to move forward with a project only to abandon it halfway through and just quit, right?

[Jason Thurman]

Bill:. During the Sunday round Jason I think aimed at the pin on 13, pulled it, it hit the slope and the ball came close-ish to going in.  The kick plate does widen the hole considerably. 

I'm mostly quoting the above out of pure ego at the mention of a good shot I hit, but John's account is accurate. I hit a draw toward the left pin and even though I overcooked it a hair, I was drooling when it landed knowing that it had a chance to get close coming off the slope. It funneled to 3 feet or so. I've hit three approaches to inside 5 feet on 13 in my couple dozen rounds at Wolf Run, and all of them came from using the slope. Some of those were semi-purposefully, as on Sunday when I played a draw knowing that if I overdid it just a bit I'd still be fine. Others were a total accident, as on the first time I played the hole when I pulled my shot and arrived at the green to find a ball sitting inches from the cup.


I started a thread earlier this year about how to "fix" 13, as it's a pretty polarizing hole (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62291.msg1480698.html#msg1480698). I absolutely love it - it's one of my favorite shots to tackle in any round at Wolf Run, and my second-favorite par 3 on a course that boasts arguably the best set of one-shotters I've played. I said in that thread that I wouldn't change anything about the hole, but after playing this weekend, I'd amend that statement slightly...


The most exciting shot that can be hit at Wolf Run is one that lands just over the bunker between the green's left edge and the tree on the hillside. I stand by my assessment of the 13th as a modern twist on the original Biarritz, with a long iron playing from one bluff to another over a deep valley and the option to hit a shot that lands, disappears into a swale, and then rolls toward the pin. As mentioned, I've hit that shot three times with varying degrees of intent, and it's absolutely thrilling to wait what seems like an eternity and then see the ball reappear on the putting surface, flirt with the green's back edge, and then take the funneling slopes down toward a day's hole location. But it's too hard a shot with too little room for error to actually try to hit intentionally. I've gotten lucky a few times when I planned for a miss to take the slope and made just the right amount of error, but to make it a reasonable play, the tree on the left hilltop would need to come down and the short grass expanded to at least its base. And I think it's a tweak that would be worthwhile if the course weren't facing closure - it would be fairly inexpensive with no dirt moving and would not only make the hole more exciting for a creative player, but would also make it much more playable for someone who can't carry a ball 190 yards. The carry to reach the kickslope is about 15 yards shorter than the direct line to the green, and it would be great if the player who can't hit a high, soft long iron shot still had a play that would allow him to stop the ball on the green and that wasn't also fraught with so much peril for a slight miss. I love the hole as is. But it's hard to ignore the missed opportunity, as it wouldn't take much to make playing for the most exciting shot on the course a legitimate option from the tee, and the maintenance tweak wouldn't jeopardize the hole's claim as one of the toughest par 3s in golf.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

Surely a skilled developer would not invest the time and energy to move forward with a project only to abandon it halfway through and just quit, right?

The locker room manager at Crooked Stick told me the exact scenario Pat brought up - that the developer was going to build houses on the high points of the property and have a 9 hole course in the valley. He made it sound like it would be a new 9, not a reconfiguration of  some of the existing holes. Could be pure rumor, but thought it was interesting that it was same concept put forward

[JWinick]

Sure, I suppose that could happen.   It's a question of demand, financing, and how much the municipality will support the project.   

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

[JWinick]

Residential real estate development is about as risky as it gets, so these projects fall through a lot.   Its strange how the club is talking so much about their own extinction, when the likelihood of the deal happening is 50/50 at best.

That's a possibility, but again, if the market supported several hundred single family homes, why would you build on as much of the property as you could?

What if the developer wasn't doing very well with the first half of the property and didn't want to move forward with the rest?

Surely a skilled developer would not invest the time and energy to move forward with a project only to abandon it halfway through and just quit, right?

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