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Tim Gallant

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Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« on: March 18, 2016, 03:25:36 PM »
Tomorrow I will be playing a course where only two-ball play is permitted. Most of the members play foursomes as it is both quick and social. I have played this course before, both on my own ball and as part of a foursomes team. My question is: does foursomes play give players a better or worse appreciation for the architecture on the course?


I am in two minds. One one hand, only playing 50% of the shots means that you have more time to spend assessing some of the features of the course, and may find subtle nuances that you might not of otherwise noticed. On the other hand, you may not even go back to some of the tee boxes / see some fairway bunkers or even putt on some of the greens.


Curious as to what others think.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 03:29:06 PM »
I should also say I love foursomes play. I was just more curious about the appreciation of GCA as a result of playing this format.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2016, 04:15:55 PM »
At ANGC I got dibs on the evens.

Tim Gallant

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Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2016, 04:29:02 PM »
At ANGC I got dibs on the evens.


Don't worry partner, I'll be sure to duff it off the tee at 11, 13 and 15 to give you good layup options :)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2016, 04:44:21 PM »
I'll get you 30 yds out, no problem. At least after I find the drink on 12 you can re-tee.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2016, 11:36:01 AM »
At ANGC I got dibs on the evens.


You must be a good iron player, all the par 3s are evens.   That's an important consideration when deciding who plays odds or evens.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2016, 11:13:51 PM »
The whole purpose of foursomes is to get back to the clubhouse as soon as possible to be sure that the bar has not run out of Kummel and/or Jaegerbombs,.  Any time spent studying the architecture is time ill spent.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Matt Dawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2016, 06:41:45 AM »
Jagerbombs?!?  :o

Rich, please identify the 2-ball foursomes golf club that proffers such a beverage.

I don't recall it being a big seller at Rye or Brancaster....

HCEG perhaps?

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2016, 07:39:11 AM »
The great distance runner Geoffrey Mutai was asked if he reads the signs people hold up along marathon routes. Impossible, he said. He's running too fast. So as Rich said if you're studying the architecture you're doing it wrong.

As for mixed foursomes, who can pay attention to anything during an argument?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2016, 10:54:15 AM »
The only time I've _ever_ drunk a Jagerbomb was at Royal Cinque Ports.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2016, 02:09:05 PM »
The only time I've _ever_ drunk a Jagerbomb was at Royal Cinque Ports.
Me too.  On the same occasion, I believe.  What's more, I believe they were bought for us by the captain.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2016, 02:49:07 PM »
Rich and Mark,


Not sure. Yesterday, I played with a higher handicap than myself. I actually thought it made me appreciate the design of the course more. Reason? I understood what hazards were in play for him vs. me. Some bunkers that I blew over in the morning, he needed to play away from (and because there was width, he was able to).


Also, I needed to think about my risk / reward in a more interesting way. I might have felt comfortable to take on a particular risk/reward shot if I was the one to hit the next shot should I fail, whereas because I was playing foursomes, I needed to consider what areas were no-gos based on his ability.


On the Jager-bombs - never even seen a Jager bottle in a clubhouse. But maybe I'm just not looking hard enough :)

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2016, 03:04:52 PM »
I should add, we finished in 2.30 :) - Plenty of time for a drink.

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 03:06:25 PM »
Given that both duration and dress rules are often supposed to contribute to the decline in golf's popular appeal, it has always struck me as a pleasing irony that many of the clubs which have the most traditional dress codes (e.g. jacket and tie at certain times for lunch) are those in which the pace of the play is the fastest, precisely because of the adherence to foursomes. The Sacred Nine, Rye, Aldeburgh, HCEG, Woking, Huntercombe exemplify this paradox nicely.

Architecturally, there are clearly some courses (of which Worly and Rye are perhaps the most celebrated) where the layout is particularly suited to foursomes (when played properly, with the non-driver walking forward). Indeed at Rye the tee-shot at the 3rd is sometimes played before the completion of the 2nd hole, precisely to facilitate walking forward. But that is probably an extreme example.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2016, 07:38:42 PM »
Jaeger trains at Muirfield are part of its appeal......

At Deal we sometimes tee off on 6 as you come down 5 and if it's clear ahead tee off on 15 while your partners tee off on 14. Both save decent walks and knock 5 minutes off a round.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2016, 08:44:36 PM »
The only time I've _ever_ drunk a Jagerbomb was at Royal Cinque Ports.
Me too.  On the same occasion, I believe.  What's more, I believe they were bought for us by the captain.


Me three.  I don't think I finished the drink  8) 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 06:35:36 AM »
The only time I've _ever_ drunk a Jagerbomb was at Royal Cinque Ports.
Me too.  On the same occasion, I believe.  What's more, I believe they were bought for us by the captain.


Me three.  I don't think I finished the drink  8) 


Ciao
I have certainly never felt the desire to have another.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 07:29:40 AM »
I had no desire to have that one. I was press-ganged into it!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 08:44:37 PM »
I'm too busy swilling down a Pimms Cup to consider a Jaėgerbomb. 


Muirfield is another foursomes club.  Check the aerial view to see all the walking paths that result from a true foursomes game. 

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 09:02:22 AM »
I would happily play foursomes every round.  If its a new course to you I do think it gives you more time to have a look around you and agree with Tim, depending on your partner, you discover elements (and dare I says parts of the course!) that you would even consider on your own ball.


If played properly it would kill off the slow play issue but if amongst a groups playing fourball it is frustrating.


From what I can tell many golfers opinion on foursomes as a format goes through 5 stages:


This is great!  I love the novelty!
This is rubbish, now.  The novelty has worn off.  I don't get to play that often and when I do I want to hit all my own shots.
Hey, this is a nice break away from fourball, I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed it.
Wow, fourball is bloody slow compared to what I did last week, I wish I could play foursomes all the time!
I now play foursomes all the time whenever the option is there.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 10:13:48 AM »
Simon makes an important observation:  "If played properly it would kill off the slow play issue but if amongst a groups playing fourball it is frustrating."

I've played in a tournament for 15 years where we play a fourball round on Saturday morning and a foursome round in the afternoon (also Friday fourball and Sunday single sessions).  Two teams, roughly 12 guys on each team, playing match play.  On a busy public course (USA), with other golfers, you have way too much time to study the architecture playing foursomes.  The pace seams glacial if you take a match that should be played in 2.5 hours and stretch it to 4.  In fact, I have played a course I initially liked that I grew to think was overly quirky and poorly designed as a result of having too much time to study it.  BTW, since we moved the tourney to our course, we do our best to avoid the same thing happening.           


Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2016, 02:11:02 PM »
I would happily play foursomes every round.  If its a new course to you I do think it gives you more time to have a look around you and agree with Tim, depending on your partner, you discover elements (and dare I says parts of the course!) that you would even consider on your own ball.


If played properly it would kill off the slow play issue but if amongst a groups playing fourball it is frustrating.


From what I can tell many golfers opinion on foursomes as a format goes through 5 stages:


This is great!  I love the novelty!
This is rubbish, now.  The novelty has worn off.  I don't get to play that often and when I do I want to hit all my own shots.
Hey, this is a nice break away from fourball, I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed it.
Wow, fourball is bloody slow compared to what I did last week, I wish I could play foursomes all the time!
I now play foursomes all the time whenever the option is there.


Spot on Simon and agree with everything you say. I (fortunately) have not played foursomes on a course where others were playing fourball, so have been lucky in that regard.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2016, 02:54:02 PM »
The mixed version isn't called Mixed Gruesomes for nothing.


I played in such a competition once a long time ago and only had balata Titleists in my golf bag. After the first hole the ball was no longer fit for play. The rest of the round was completed using my partners Pinnicle. Not a pleasant experience.


Atb


PS - Greensomes is a much better format IMO. More tactics and strategy involved. Be nice if it were still part of the Ryder etc Cups.



Zack Molnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Foursomes appreciation for GCA
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2016, 05:07:49 PM »
Rich and Mark,


Not sure. Yesterday, I played with a higher handicap than myself. I actually thought it made me appreciate the design of the course more. Reason? I understood what hazards were in play for him vs. me. Some bunkers that I blew over in the morning, he needed to play away from (and because there was width, he was able to).


Also, I needed to think about my risk / reward in a more interesting way. I might have felt comfortable to take on a particular risk/reward shot if I was the one to hit the next shot should I fail, whereas because I was playing foursomes, I needed to consider what areas were no-gos based on his ability.


On the Jager-bombs - never even seen a Jager bottle in a clubhouse. But maybe I'm just not looking hard enough :)


I think the ability to take a different perspective on a course is very important. You partner is also undoubtedly putting you in positions that you may not be likely to find yourself in, further giving you a new perspective on the course, its hazards and angles, etc. You might need to play it twice, taking the opposite set of holes to get the whole picture though.

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