[Brad Treadwell]

Was the trend of finishing holes with ponds, lakes, and sometime fountains, that seemed to become prevelant in the 80's and 90's, based off a particular hole somewhere?  Pete Dye's work at PGA West and TPC Sawgrass stick out to me but is the actual birthplace known?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I often wondered about that, Brad, especially as there seemed to be an annoying trend that the 9th hole would go down one side of the pond and the 18th would border the other.


In Florida, where this is very prevalent, I believe the pond was made after excavating dirt to make some texture and mounding on the flat terrain. Or, is the pond also a retention vehicle for irrigation?


If not, that level of excessively penal golf (to me) is rather unimaginative unless otherwise mandated by circumstances on-site.


Perhaps it could be based on the classic cape hole, like the 1st at Machrahanish.

[Tim_Weiman]

Was the trend of finishing holes with ponds, lakes, and sometime fountains, that seemed to become prevelant in the 80's and 90's, based off a particular hole somewhere?  Pete Dye's work at PGA West and TPC Sawgrass stick out to me but is the actual birthplace known?

#18 at Pebble Beach is one much earlier example.

[Brad Treadwell]

Fair point Tim on 18 at Pebble but I don't ever recall hearing people talk about trying to make their finishing holes like 18 at Pebble.  I guess I'm thinking more about man-made water hazards vs natural ones already there.  I can think of three private clubs near me that all have Par 5 finishing holes with ponds and fountains, and they are some of the least interesting holes on these pretty decent tracks. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that finishing holes should have water fountains instead of trees and bushes. I'm not talking about the ornamental kind; I want spa water of different flavors coming out of these fountains. I want to zig-zag my way up/across the final fairway, sipping to my heart's content. Doak, Coore, et al., you reading this?

[Tom_Doak]

The birthplace might have been the 18th at Doral, which has been on TV as long as I've been watching golf, although I never heard Pete Dye cite that hole as an influence for him personally.


Certainly Mr. Dye's hole at the TPC at Sawgrass [if not Harbour Town, with its natural water left before that] put the water-left finishing hole into greater prominence ... exacerbated by the fact that either Pete or Jack Nicklaus [who imitated what was successful for Pete] were about the only two architects building courses for televised tournaments in the 1980's and most of the 90's.  Anything and everything the Tour was involved in over that time period was influenced by the TPC at Sawgrass.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think the big pond with the ninth and eighteenth on either side of it is definitely a Dye cliche. I assume Pete started it, though I couldn't say where, but you certainly see it on lots of courses by the extended Dye clan. Most egregious imo is Perry's work at Lykia Links in Turkey, where he dug a big lake in the middle of a glorious stretch of seaside sand dunes (described by one industry veteran who bid for the job to me as the best site he had ever seen) in order to build that ninth/eighteenth combo. It's horrific, a crime against golf design.

[Michael Graham]

I think the big pond with the ninth and eighteenth on either side of it is definitely a Dye cliche. I assume Pete started it, though I couldn't say where, but you certainly see it on lots of courses by the extended Dye clan. Most egregious imo is Perry's work at Lykia Links in Turkey, where he dug a big lake in the middle of a glorious stretch of seaside sand dunes (described by one industry veteran who bid for the job to me as the best site he had ever seen) in order to build that ninth/eighteenth combo. It's horrific, a crime against golf design.

I've played Lykia twice and enjoyed it thoroughly on each occasion. I did, however, have to stand and stare in amazement when I first saw the lake. How could Dye Jr. possibly have thought that fitted the landscape.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete Dye may have started the trend...

To boot a large body of water like Sawgrass, or Pebble is one thing....but the hideous pond on #18 at Torrey Pines took it over the top and made it a puke fest.  I've played more holes that look like TP18 than Sawgrass 18.

[Dave McCollum]

It would seem to be a zoning requirement in Palm Springs given how often this feature is used.  Irrigation storage for sure, but I’d guess for clubhouse aesthetics also. 

[Tom_Doak]

I think the big pond with the ninth and eighteenth on either side of it is definitely a Dye cliche. I assume Pete started it, though I couldn't say where,

Crooked Stick [and later PGA West] had the 10th hole going away from the clubhouse on one side of a big lake, and the 18th coming back on the other.  At the TPC Sawgrass, the 9th hole is on the other side of the lake, but it's a par-5 and a long way from the 18th or the clubhouse.


The first course I saw with twin finishing holes coming up either side of a big man-made pond was Jack Nicklaus' original course at Grand Cypress, which opened in 1984.  The first time I saw Mr. Dye do the same thing was at Old Marsh, which opened in '87.  By the mid-90's it was ubiquitous.

[Ronald Montesano]

Niagara Region-Ontario Builds in the late 1990s and early 2000s


Here's One: http://www.niagaraparksgolf.com/legends-on-the-niagara/Battlefield.html


Here's Another One: http://www.hpgolf.ca/holelayout


Lots of wrap-around lake holes.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Those big lakes on the Dye holes cited above are awesome compared to the ponds I know Brad's referring to, which are more like the "puddle" in front of the 18th green at Torrey Pines-South. I was at Torrey Pines last month for the first time and agree with Kalen. That pine is hideous. It looks sillier in person than on TV, too.


The bigger the water feature, the better, is a good rule of thumb. Or no water feature at all    .. like Cal Club, where a similar pond was filled in at the 18th hole, to great effect.

[BHoover]

I would not mind if my course filled in all or most of the water hazard on our 18th hole. Changing the pond to a creek would not be a bad thing either.

[Brad Treadwell]

Natural creeks meandering through the property are fantastic.  Forced, artificial water hazards are uninteresting. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Fair point Tim on 18 at Pebble but I don't ever recall hearing people talk about trying to make their finishing holes like 18 at Pebble.  I guess I'm thinking more about man-made water hazards vs natural ones already there.  I can think of three private clubs near me that all have Par 5 finishing holes with ponds and fountains, and they are some of the least interesting holes on these pretty decent tracks.

I agree with your several points. Like others have said, I think of Pete Dye when it comes to this subject.

[Mark Saltzman]

Natural creeks meandering through the property are fantastic.  Forced, artificial water hazards are uninteresting.

Huh? A natural creek used poorly is more interesting than an artificial water hazard used strategically? Function trumps form not the other way around.

[Jon Wiggett]

Artificial water always sucks IMO but natural water is fine.

[RDecker]

It's about the clubhouse...the clubhouse needs a good view, and if water is available as a view then you take it.  The 18th needs to come back to the clubhouse so therefore you wind up with 18 being a water hole.

[Jon Wiggett]

It's about the clubhouse...the clubhouse needs a good view, and if water is available as a view then you take it.  The 18th needs to come back to the clubhouse so therefore you wind up with 18 being a water hole.

Strange idea. I thought golf was about playing the course. You put the clubhouse interests ahead of the course when you think you have a crap course if you ask me.

[Brad Treadwell]

Natural creeks meandering through the property are fantastic.  Forced, artificial water hazards are uninteresting.

Huh? A natural creek used poorly is more interesting than an artificial water hazard used strategically? Function trumps form not the other way around.

Mark -

Isn't that true about any type of hazard....natural or artificial???

[Matthew Petersen]

These always feel especially egregious on a desert course. Sure, you probably need to dig a pond somewhere, but it doesn't have to be in play.


One of the most unfortunate examples in my mind is Vista Verde in Scottsdale (or whatever they are calling it today), which is a wonderful desert course for 17 holes and then wraps the 18th around a ridiculous little pond. You get this at both Grayhawk courses, as well.


On the bright side is a place like Lookout Mountain here in Phoenix (part of the Pointe at Tapatio Cliffs Resort). That's a funky course to be sure, but 16 and 18 used to feature really out of place ponds. A few years ago they filled the water features in as a water (and thus cost) savings feature. But both holes are better for it, and fit the landscape much more naturally. (The 15th hole there still has a pond, which I assume they needed to keep for drainage and irrigation.)

[RDecker]

Jon, I'm not suggesting that the idea of routing the course around the clubhouse always serves to produce the best course but it does happen and clubhouse setting is an important consideration when you are trying to attract members.  Not all golfers are architecture aficionados like people here.  Whether you like to admit it or not golf courses are geared to attract a wide demographic in the modern era and I'm sure making a good impression on potential members has always been a consideration.

[Jon Wiggett]

RDecker,

I understand that very well but what you were pushing seemed to be more that water on the last was always the best option which I certainly do not agree with. In addition, there are very few great views from a clubhouse that uses a manmade water feature. The vast majority do not.

Jon

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