News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ian Scott-Taylor

Open Letter
« on: August 06, 2014, 09:51:30 AM »
Ladies and gentlemen,

When we decided to have Phil write about my grandfather’s Tillinghast sketches, I never expected the uproar that has followed. To me they’ve been a wonderful piece of my family heritage which I was shown by my father when I was a boy growing up.
 
The cause of the controversy was how I told Phil that he was bound to only reveal the things that he did. I know that some have had a hard time believing this, but its because there is an ongoing legal issue at the moment involving my mother’s estate. Unfortunately, the answers to all of your questions are in the documents that I cannot legally share until it is over and neither can Phil. Believe me when I say that he is aching to do so.
 
What I can do is what I’ve now asked Phil to do, that is, to wait and not to comment any longer. There are simply too many questions that can’t be answered until the legal issues end. It is unfair to Phil and me and even you, to attempt to provide half answers when the whole ones will provide the answers being sought.
 
I will also say this, my grandfather’s collection is a good deal larger than these 2 sketches. Some on here are aware of some of the others, but these most certainly are not all of them. I look forward to when I can come back on and discuss and provide the answers to the questions about the Tillinghast sketches and others that I’m hoping to share on here.
 
One important point, Phil is a dear friend and has been for a long time before I ever began sharing our family’s treasure with him. He hasn’t deserved either the criticism or the much worse attacks on his honor that have been leveled on here and that is my fault. Others, not involved in any way other than peripherally, have also had near slanderous things said about them for no better reason than that their name was mentioned. Regardless of what one may think as to the veracity of my family’s claim, those are things that are wrong and should not be part of a serious conversation and debate. I sincerely hope that when I return that it will not happen again.
 




I would also like to thank Ran for letting me on this site and for putting up Phil’s essay regardless of the reception it received. I will see you down the road…

Kindest regards
 
Ian Scott-Taylor
 

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 06:51:15 PM »
Thank you very much.   Very sincerely appreciated.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 07:45:56 PM »
I agree, thank you.  This has been a most uncomfortable situation.  Hopefully all will be revealed before too long. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 07:51:14 AM »
Ian

Thank you for that. As one of the "protagonists" let me say I do not wish this to turn into a form of bear baiting but I think you would agree there are a number of serious questions that throw doubt on the authenticity of the material being presented. I appreciate that you feel you can't answer some (all ?) of those questions due to ongoing legal proceedings but can you answer questions on what has already been published ? Also when do you expect the legal proceedings to be finalised ?

Niall

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 09:50:03 AM »
Niall,

I doubt that Phil or Ian will post again until all the journals and drawings can come to light. Everyone appreciates that is what needs to happen. Indeed, nothing else matters - full access to D S-T's entire (golf related) collection needs to be granted to qualified people for purpose of authentication. 

Based on my conversation with Ian on Saturday, that is months away, likely into 2015. Given that timeframe, the Tillinghast piece will be moved today into the In My Opinion section. A note will be placed at the top of it that reads, ‘The following article is based on information derived from the Scott-Taylor family that is presently not in the public domain and therefore can’t be inspected.’

Best,

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 10:13:45 AM »
Ran,

If the documents really can't be examined to be authenticated until 2015, wouldn't it be advisable to withdraw the article until then.  There are clearly quite serious questions around some of the documents revealed so far.  I can't easily conceive of other documents that might be in the collection which would address the concerns over the sketches.  If however, they might exist wouldn't it be better for the whole article to be under wraps until the are revealed?

Hopefully at that time we may also learn the nature of the legal dispute which has allowed certain of the documents to be studied and copied at various times over the past months but which does not now.

Best Regards,

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 11:18:43 AM »
Ran

I think at this juncture, given the paucity of information and the fact that Ian feels unable to comment, that setting the discussion to one side seems a reasonable approach. Hopefully the legal matters will all be resolved and Ian/Phil will be able to post more information in the near future.

Regards

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2014, 12:47:02 PM »
I think Mark hits on a number of important points.

I'm no expert on Scottish law, but I cannot conceive of any legitimate legal prohibition which would allow Phil and Mr. Scott-Taylor to selectively copy, publish, distribute, test, and shop around some of the materials, yet at the same time completely sequester the materials that would supposedly answer all our questions.

Can anyone take a shot at explaining this?  Surely there is no legal prohibition on explaining how this works.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2014, 01:09:37 AM »
I think Mark hits on a number of important points.

I'm no expert on Scottish law, but I cannot conceive of any legitimate legal prohibition which would allow Phil and Mr. Scott-Taylor to selectively copy, publish, distribute, test, and shop around some of the materials, yet at the same time completely sequester the materials that would supposedly answer all our questions.

Can anyone take a shot at explaining this?  Surely there is no legal prohibition on explaining how this works.



David,

I am not a US or Scottish lawyer, but I am wondering the same thing.
Tim Weiman

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2014, 03:01:43 AM »
Gents

I think the material is held in Wales and therefore will be subject to English law if that makes sense. But as usual could well be wrong about that.

Niall

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2014, 03:22:12 AM »

Can anyone take a shot at explaining this?  Surely there is no legal prohibition on explaining how this works.


I'll have a go...

Clearly the materials have been fully available to Mr Scott-Taylor for a couple of years at least - he gave the compliers of the 2013 Mackenzie Timeline the snippet about his grandfather sharing a train journey with Dr Mackenzie in 1922, and in February 2013 he issued a press release giving details of Mackenzie's relationship with his grandfather. This information must have come from the journals; I can't see how "family folklore" could be so specific.

http://americangolfer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/golf-architect-ian-scott-taylor-made.html

http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/people/scott-taylor-made-honorary-member-of-alister-mackenzie-society/

We also hear that the sketches have been hawked around various potentially interested parties over the last year or so. Apparently no-one took them seriously enough to make an offer.


Things seem to have changed on 19th April this year. Sadly, Ian Scott-Taylor's mother died.

http://www.bmdsonline.co.uk/37994437-obituary-scott-taylor-eileenmona19th

Mrs Scott-Taylor was resident in Scotland towards the end of her life, living with her daughter Mona who had relocated from North Wales with her husband to near Inverness. Mrs Scott-Taylor died in a hospital in Inverness.

Presumably the materials we are discussing were the property of the late Mrs Scott-Taylor, despite the clear fact that her son Ian had been utilising them for some time. I guess that the argument that until probate is completed the documents are unavailable has some merit.  I don't know, but perhaps the fact that she was a Scottish resident at the time of her death complicates matters?


My question centres on the timing of Phil's article.

Why now?

Why reveal the Tillinghust sketches and the journals to the world only a few months after Mrs Scott-Taylor's death and then IMMEDIATELY point out that they are unavailable to be examined because of probate issues?

Why not just wait until the legal formalities had been completed and then do the job properly? What was the rush?

By Ian and Phil's own account anyway, they weren't even Ian's property to reveal.


Or to sell...

« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 04:13:30 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 01:56:47 PM »
Duncan,

Mr. Scott-Taylor has continued to selectively access, copy, distribute, disseminate and shop around the materials over the past three months, while the material is supposedly locked up in probate.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 02:51:23 PM »
Bump
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 02:53:41 PM »
Good bump, David.   Anybody up to date on this situation?  Could be interesting.

Joshua Pettit

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 09:47:06 PM by Joshua Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 07:12:54 PM »
The timing of the "new Topic" is certainly interesting.  It was working this morning as there is at least one thread that was started today.

I checked the source code for the main DG page, and sure enough the New Topic code is missing.


Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 09:29:22 PM »
The button has returned.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2016, 11:32:50 AM »
The button has returned.

Indeed it has, it was removed from the Source code yesterday and put back in today.  I suspect it may have been a temporary thing in light of the 4-5 threads that got bumped yesterday.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2016, 01:33:02 PM »
The button has returned.

Indeed it has, it was removed from the Source code yesterday and put back in today.  I suspect it may have been a temporary thing in light of the 4-5 threads that got bumped yesterday.


It seemed to me those threads got bumped due to there being no new topic button, however I was not the "bumper" so I can't say for sure. Still, very strange...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Open Letter
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2016, 01:38:50 PM »
The button has returned.

Indeed it has, it was removed from the Source code yesterday and put back in today.  I suspect it may have been a temporary thing in light of the 4-5 threads that got bumped yesterday.


It seemed to me those threads got bumped due to there being no new topic button, however I was not the "bumper" so I can't say for sure. Still, very strange...

Better to bump existing threads anyways.  I was gone from GCA.com when everything happened back in 2014, so I spent a bit of time and got caught up....

Once again, I'm guessing Ran just didn't want a bunch of new threads started to open an old wound and I don't blame him.