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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is there ANY length that CAN'T make for a great hole?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2016, 07:28:10 PM »
Holes 12 and 13 at Royal North Devon are an interesting study. 12 is 406 from the member tees. 13 is 422 yards from the member tees and a par five. It's not 350 yards but is certainly reachable in two for most players. The difficulty lies in Nd around the green. It is almost impossible for most players to hit the green in two.  Chipping is no bargain either. I figure I make as many sixes as fours. I don't know any other holes like it, but it works there.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 09:56:48 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Ken Moum

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Re: Is there ANY length that CAN'T make for a great hole?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2016, 02:07:43 AM »
The new 7th at Tara Iti is a great 265-yard hole, but only because everyone thinks of it as a par-4.

Oh, Jeezus....

Tom, I know you're right about that, but doesn't it somehow point out how silly this is?

No one who's really any good is going to be happy with a four there.  I thought par was the score a scratch golfer is expected to make.



Ken:


You haven't seen the hole.  Perhaps, the first time around, a good player would be disappointed with a 4 there, but a bit of experience will likely convince him that 4 is not so bad after all.  In the three matches I played on the front nine during the Renaissance Cup, my partner and I won that hole with a 4, all three times.

Okay then.

As I've said, in between holes make me happy.  I suppose that's why I like Elie.

Sixteen holes they call par fours is about as close as we're going to get to V. Kmetz's concept.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mark Pearce

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Re: Is there ANY length that CAN'T make for a great hole?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 08:42:57 AM »
The new 7th at Tara Iti is a great 265-yard hole, but only because everyone thinks of it as a par-4.

Oh, Jeezus....

Tom, I know you're right about that, but doesn't it somehow point out how silly this is?

No one who's really any good is going to be happy with a four there.  I thought par was the score a scratch golfer is expected to make.



Ken:


You haven't seen the hole.  Perhaps, the first time around, a good player would be disappointed with a 4 there, but a bit of experience will likely convince him that 4 is not so bad after all.  In the three matches I played on the front nine during the Renaissance Cup, my partner and I won that hole with a 4, all three times.

Okay then.

As I've said, in between holes make me happy.  I suppose that's why I like Elie.

Sixteen holes they call par fours is about as close as we're going to get to V. Kmetz's concept.
And one of the two par 3s is a half-par hole.  I'll take a 4 on 3 and move on any time.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

V. Kmetz

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Re: Is there ANY length that CAN'T make for a great hole?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2016, 10:30:03 PM »


It's a par-4.  If the scorecard said it was a par-3, at 265 yards and with a tiny green, I would have been lynched.  I saw every number from 3 to 7 made there at the Renaissance Cup, and heard about a couple of 2's ... but I would guess the scoring average was well above 4, and maybe closer to 5 if everyone had finished the hole.


Tom, doesn't this and your other input about this hole ..."only great because its called a 4"..."I would have been lynched"... make the precise case I've been making for quite a while... that an individual hole par is an unnecessary prism by which to experience or contemplate or, for professional designers, "push" architecture?


Is the 7th at PB all of a sudden a poor, less memorable, or less stirring hole, if we don't put a par on it and just say "107 yards?" Wouldn't that hole you're referencing be better received and enjoyed if IT had no par associated with it? You're "lynched" if it's a par 3, and thought silly if you call it a 4...otherwise you're telling us that one oughtn't to design a hole of that yardage. If you don't put a par on ANY of them, doesn't "that" part of it fizzle out...where people can get down to experiencing/imbibing the architecture for its fundamental value and its provocation of recreation?


I think you and others are right to surmise that the "toughest" yardage to design to good effect is this 230-280 and to my way of thinking, it's precisely the distance we need to see a bit more of...a hole that's "juuusssst" within reach of many players, but indefinitely so, according to the day and one's abilities...what is more fun for match opponents or a player trying to make a medal number than a hole like that? Same thing on the other, longer end of such types of (currently called half-par) holes...the 450-490 yard hole...again, just at the limit of reaching in two shots for a great majority of players...why would we needlessly spoil whatever the virtues of the hole by declaring what "par" standards are before a swing has been made?...and if the land should reveal a heroic feature or sanction with a penalty...more's the better in terms of that decision which is just at the cusp of many players yardage, but perhaps not execution THAT day, THAT match, THAT round...


Your anecdotal reports of the scores there tell me that it is a very, very good hole. It gives up scores; it flummoxes scores; it probably is amusing and I can't think it gives too much of an advantage to players who would be pitted against each other in a match, no matter what their differing styles and HCPs.


cheers


vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Doug Siebert

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Re: Is there ANY length that CAN'T make for a great hole?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2016, 04:11:24 PM »
Anything long enough that it plays as a par 6 on a calm day for a decent golfer who hits three well struck shots.
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