Short Grass around greens?

[Mark_Fine]

In the old days, there were very few cuts of grass.  You basically had the height of the greens, the height of the fairway, and the height of the rough.  In many cases it was just the green height and everything else (and in the really early days there was no difference at all before mechanical mowers came into play).

I was curious who started the trend of closely mown turf "around greens" such that the height is equal to that of the fairway if not the green itself?

Pinehurst #2 is well known for this but we all know that Ross didn't design those greens and surrounds that way. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I would think the Texas wedge was invented in Texas.

[jeffwarne]

I was curious who started the trend of closely mown turf "around greens" such that the height is equal to that of the fairway if not the green itself?

the makers of fairway woods

[Tom_Doak]

In the old days, there were very few cuts of grass.  You basically had the height of the greens, the height of the fairway, and the height of the rough.  In many cases it was just the green height and everything else (and in the really early days there was no difference at all before mechanical mowers came into play).

I was curious who started the trend of closely mown turf "around greens" such that the height is equal to that of the fairway if not the green itself?

Pinehurst #2 is well known for this but we all know that Ross didn't design those greens and surrounds that way. 

Some of the old courses were that way.  The Valley Club, for example, originally gang-mowed their fairways up around the green and right onto the next tee.  It was not a new idea -- the sheep had always done it that way at St. Andrews and North Berwick.  All of the courses in Melbourne had short grass around the greens when I first saw them in 1988 ... Royal Melbourne had 25 feet of short grass around every single green, except where bunkers intervened tighter than that.


I think it was in the 1970's or early 80's that superintendents started mowing their approaches tighter than the fairway ... though usually they necked down the width of the fairway to minimize the area being maintained that way.  David Eger, when he was with the USGA as their tournament set-up man, was the one who instituted chipping areas around several greens at Shinnecock Hills and Pebble Beach leading up to the U.S. Opens in the 1980's.  At Shinnecock, you see short grass around the greens on the old plans; I'm not sure it existed at Pebble before David.


I started putting short grass around greens from my very first course [High Pointe, in 1989].  I can't remember for sure if Bill Coore had it at Rockport CC before I did, but it's a feature of the majority of his courses, too.  The only place it doesn't work so well is in the northeast U.S., where they spend so much money per acre spraying fungicide on bentgrass fairways and chipping areas.

[JNagle]

Not sure who exactly invented it's use here in the States.  Often it was a function of maintenance.  An eight gang mower could not make turns within fairways so they were often driven around the outside of a green to make the turn.  This is not the sole culprit but one of I am sure many.

[Thomas Dai]

I would think the Texas wedge was invented in Texas.

With tongue planted firmly in cheek I would suggest that folk in Scotland etc were playing shots akin to the Texas wedge before Texas was even invented!

Atb

[John Jeffreys]

I would love to post some images if I knew how.If you google images 1936 PGA championship the first 2 golf course pictures are of the 2nd and 4th hole of course no. 2 and the short grass surrounds and putting surfaces that are very similar to what are there today.

[jeffwarne]

I would love to post some images if I knew how.If you google images 1936 PGA championship the first 2 golf course pictures are of the 2nd and 4th hole of course no. 2 and the short grass surrounds and putting surfaces that are very similar to what are there today.

No problem with "fairways" surrounding greens-inspires options and creativity.


BUT, I would bet my last dollar that the "chipping areas" are cut tighter now, than the surrounds were in 1936, and are more likely tighter than the greens were then as well.


Which DECREASES options and variety as the club and trajectory choices decrease (i.e. putter or fairway wood)


Nothing better than an unirrigated firm fairway that has some grass on it mowed at a reasonable height, or as Tom said areas that were/are cut by grazing animals

[JMEvensky]

"I was curious who started the trend of closely mown turf "around greens" such that the height is equal to that of the fairway if not the green itself? "

From The Lurquer

Mark:In his May/June 1913 hole by hole booklet for Pine Valley Harry Colt called for "hollows and banks to be kept mown" around six greens. Of course it does not appear Crump/Govan ever built them that way.

The Lurquer

[Mark_Fine]

One of the questions I have is this - quite a few of the golden age designers called for "fairway cut" around some of their greens but back then "fairway cut" was not green height cut.  Today, a bent grass fairway can almost be putt on.  Heck at Oakmont it is hard to tell where the fairway ends and the green begins?   I am not sure those classic architects intended these closely mown "chipping areas" around the greens to allow routine use of the putter (or essentially to become extensions of the greens).   Don't get me wrong, I like the concept and use it often when and where appropriate as it offers great variety and shot options.  Short grass is a great hazard.  However, I am not sure I would argue that it is "restoration of a classic design feature if it is added back to a classic course even if the architect called for a fairway cut.  Thoughts? 

As Tom said maybe it was in the 70's or 80's when the practice of very tightly mowed areas (near green height) around greens really started to take off. 

[GBoring]

Mark,


We have a 1939 Overhead picture of the CC of Scranton and the short cut chipping areas around the greens were maintained then as well as on Travis's Original drawing.

[Tom_Doak]

One of the questions I have is this - quite a few of the golden age designers called for "fairway cut" around some of their greens but back then "fairway cut" was not green height cut. 

No, but "green height cut" wasn't the same then as it is now, either.


There is no doubt that modern maintenance has made it easier to putt from off the green, but it's not like it was never done before 1980.  It was certainly done in the UK, as I did it all the time when I lived over there ... but I recall using the putter from off the green at Pinehurst and other places in the 1970's, too.


The key factor is whether the speed of the greens is somewhat comparable to the speed of the fairway/approach. If it's not, then a slight miscalculation on the first part [when the ball is rolling across higher cut] will make so much difference on the second part, that you are better off chipping or pitching.  [In New Zealand two weeks ago, it was no problem to putt from well off the green at Tara Iti, but at Cape Kidnappers with more bent in the mix, it didn't work so well even though there is a lot of area around the greens mowed tight.] 


Arguably, though, in the old days when the greens were only rolling at 7 on the Stimp, putting from off the green wouldn't have been that much different ... you just really had to whack the ball to get anywhere!

[Matt Wharton]

Not sure who exactly invented it's use here in the States.  Often it was a function of maintenance.  An eight gang mower could not make turns within fairways so they were often driven around the outside of a green to make the turn.  This is not the sole culprit but one of I am sure many.

This was definitely the case at my first course, Lake Bonaventure CC in VA.  I learned to mow fairways with an old Jacobsen F10 with 7 reels.  That monstrosity of a machine was so large I would swing wide and travel around behind the green in order to turn myself around and head back up the other side of the fairway.  If the next tee was near it would be incorporated in those passes around and behind the greens.  Thinking back we could have easily only had two heights of cut (greens, everything else) there, but we also had rough we mowed with a pull-behind 5-gang.

[Josh Stevens]

Is there an economic benefit (or penalty) to just mowing everything the same height?

I presume more grass to mow, but perhaps less items of machinery and less fussing with mowing lines?

What is the downside of a course just eliminating rough all together and cutting everything at fairway height?

[Jon Wiggett]

Is there an economic benefit (or penalty) to just mowing everything the same height?

I presume more grass to mow, but perhaps less items of machinery and less fussing with mowing lines?

What is the downside of a course just eliminating rough all together and cutting everything at fairway height?

Josh,

from a playing point of view there are no downsides to the grass been all at fairway height. The problem is that fairway height needs cutting at least twice as often as semi-rough so it comes down to a time and cost decision. In the olden days with the massive gang mowers behind tractors this was possible but the dedicated fairway units of today are too slow to do large areas and too expensive.

Jon

[Sean_A]

From my perspective, if we are talking about mainly fescue greens/fairways/surrounds, I am all for fairway height around most greens. It means the greens can effectively be far larger without the added expense of that much green height grass. Once more bents most other grasses most of the year are in question the putter is less of an option much of the time unless its a flat area which is dry, so why not keep the surrounds (and fairways for that matter) a bit longer?   


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

There's geography and history to consider here as well.


For example, sheep, cattle, goats, horses etc etc once played a significant role in grass cutting at golf courses in GB&I and in places like NZ and Aussie (plus skippy etc) as well. Still do in some places.


Out of curiosity, and I suspect the answer may be no, was this ever commonplace in the USA?


Bit of an apples and oranges situation really. My preference is for as much short grass as possible taking the above plus terrain, finances etc etc into consideration.


Atb

[Mark_Fine]

We have all seen old drawings from the 20’s and 30’s where the architect showed the fairway running up to and/or around the side of a green (sometimes all the way around the green).  We know back then that the fairway was cut at a different height than the green (the heights varied depending on mowing equipment/practices).  The question I have, is if you were “restoring” what the architect had intended in his drawing, how would you maintain those areas?  If you are for example dealing with bent grass fairways, do you think the architect intended to have a ball that was just off the edge of the green, roll 30 yards away into a closely mown chipping area or was that not the intent.  Take the chipping area that Fazio added beyond the 3rd green at Oakmont.  If you are a foot over that green you will end up with a 40 or 50 yard shot back up the hill from the “chipping area”. 
[/size]
[/size]I like chipping areas and think that add a whole new set of complexity to green complexes when added properly.  But the question is, were they designed to function this way by the original designers?  By adding them are you “restoring” a lost feature or just adding a new maintenance twist because modern equipment and grasses allow it? 

[Tom_Doak]

The problem is that fairway height needs cutting at least twice as often as semi-rough so it comes down to a time and cost decision. In the olden days with the massive gang mowers behind tractors this was possible but the dedicated fairway units of today are too slow to do large areas and too expensive.

Jon:


I haven't got the budget numbers to prove it, but I've been told by a couple of greenkeepers that keeping all the grass at one height of cut is not much more expensive, with fescue or bermuda fairways [which go dormant or mostly dormant in winter so you don't have to mow them much at all].  The extra cutting is done with large units, whereas you eliminate the cost of an additional dedicated mower for the roughs, which is usually also a smaller unit that takes more time to cut the same area, not to mention elimination of transit times.  Hopefully Don Mahaffey will see this thread and chime in.

[Josh Stevens]

But then does a little band of rough help to speed up play.

My course is said to have no rough, but that's not true.  We actually maintain say a 2m strip of first cut, probably only 3/4 inch in height before then transitioning into the sandy wastes.

Its not really rough in the traditional sense, but it does make approaches a bit harder to firm greens, but perhaps its biggest role is a backstop to wayward shots scuttling into the scrub. Without it, on our firm fairways, anything off line would be in the bushes in a second and golf would be a 5 hour nightmare.

[Mark_Fine]

I know there is a big cost difference maintaining bent grass vs. rough grass.  It is almost like maintaining a green expect at a different height.  Bermuda I am not so sure but in general the lower you cut grass the more challenging it is to maintain and the more susceptible it is to disease, etc. 

So the question remains, are closely mown "chipping areas" a classic design feature where architects envisioned a putting option for recovery shots or are they a new maintenance practice resulting from new mowers and new grasses that allows for a new interesting architectural feature?

[Jon Wiggett]

The problem is that fairway height needs cutting at least twice as often as semi-rough so it comes down to a time and cost decision. In the olden days with the massive gang mowers behind tractors this was possible but the dedicated fairway units of today are too slow to do large areas and too expensive.

Jon:


I haven't got the budget numbers to prove it, but I've been told by a couple of greenkeepers that keeping all the grass at one height of cut is not much more expensive, with fescue or bermuda fairways [which go dormant or mostly dormant in winter so you don't have to mow them much at all].  The extra cutting is done with large units, whereas you eliminate the cost of an additional dedicated mower for the roughs, which is usually also a smaller unit that takes more time to cut the same area, not to mention elimination of transit times.  Hopefully Don Mahaffey will see this thread and chime in.

Tom,

though true, in order to do this you would need the design to accommodate it which very few do. Like I said I do like the idea.

Jon

[Sean_A]

So the question remains, are closely mown "chipping areas" a classic design feature where architects envisioned a putting option for recovery shots or are they a new maintenance practice resulting from new mowers and new grasses that allows for a new interesting architectural feature?

Mark

I don't really know the answer to your question. I haven't read too much which suggests putting from 5 yards off greens was an architectural goal, but that doesn't mean much. Plenty of archies don't articulate why they do stuff.  To me, it doesn't much matter because its down to agronomy and there is no way the clock can be turned back.  If a modern archie thinks puttable grass is a good idea they are selling they should explain why..rather than falling back on...well, Dr Mac said or did so and so.  Agronomy simply cannot be compared across the past 125 years in the way we compare architecture even though the two are as related as fingers are to the thumb.

Ciao

[Jim Franklin]

I loved the closely mowed areas around the greens at Milwaukee CC. It made the course a lot of fun. I was curious if the closely mowed around the greens would work at Baltimore CC. Unfortunately, I don't think the membership would ever give it a try since Tillie didn't do it.

[Doug Siebert]

A lot depends on the type of grass. You can mow bent grass very short, but if it is very dense it is kind of springy and might not lend itself to putting despite a low mow height.

Over in Scotland and Ireland the grass tends to lay down so it makes for a very smooth putting surface - sometimes there's not a lot of difference in the speed of green and fairway!