Lawrenceville School Golf Course - Collaboration anyone?

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's the 1953 article.





Sounds like to me that it was Swan in 1897 (possibly improving 6 existing holes or laying out an entire new course on new land), Dunn coming in some time prior to 1900 (per the 1900 Harper's Report) and possibly giving himself credit for the lay out, and Norton doing subsequent improvements later.

[MCirba]

Sven,

Could be, although an Internet search on "Seymour Dunn" and "Lawrenceville" claims he designed it in 1896 while on vacation in the states at the age of 15.   That doesn't seem to be the case and it would be interesting to track down his time of employment at LS, if indeed the "Mr. Dunn" mentioned as the instructor in the May 1901 article in question is actually Seymour.

[Bill Crane]

Very interesting!

Looking over the posts prior to reading the Lawrentian article, I was struck by the timing of the first real course at L'Ville at 1897, since the original Springdale/Princeton Golf Club was founded in 1895 and up and running in 1896. 

My general impression is during an earlier era Lawrenceville was viewed as a Boarding School that helped boys get into Princeton U, literally just up the road.  Princeton must have had a big influence on Lawrenceville, and with the timing of the L'Ville course creation, it is logical to think that Springdale influenced it's creation. 

The article begins to make that connection noting that James Swann came over from Princeton and mentioning Springdale.    I had not previously heard this sort of link between SGC and the Lawrenceville golf club.

Interestingly,  a direct descendent of John Reid of the Apple Tree gang is a member of Springdale and has some interesting artifacts from him.

I used to live across the street from the golf course, near the Presbyterian church and would sneak on in the evening from time to time.

Bill Crane
Springdale Member

[Sven Nilsen]

Seymour Dunn was born in 1882 and supposedly did visit the states around the age of 15.  But he didn't move here until around 1907, having been busy in Europe up until then.

That 1900 Harper's attribution is very curious.

[Rory Connaughton]

Is a Hill-L'Ville home and home (Brookside/Lawrenceville) the next big event on the GCA calendar?


Tim, what class were you? (I was '88).


My recollection is that one of the nines at Brookside was owned by the School and the ground for the second nine leased to the club.
The Gordons worked there in the 1950's so I would not be surprised if Mike's guess is as to the Gordon involvement at L'Ville is accurate.

[MCirba]

William Gordon made extensive changes (including building 9 new greens) at Lawrenceville in 1953.  At the time, the club had lost some land and only had 7 shortish holes in play.   

Gordon's plan (including the course drawing) can be found on pages 11 and 12 in the June 1st, 1953 Lawrencian with an update about the progress on Page 3 of the Sept 1, 1953 issue.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sven,

While looking for Seymour Dunn the other day I saw an article mentioning that he was 'engaged' by the Hollwood GC, Hollywood, NJ, in 1897. Also one from the same year/period that says he came over to be JDD's assistant at Ardsley.


Sounds like he did get here, but where he actually began working......? If Harper's is correct he may have gone to Hollywood.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Did the 'big' course in the 1931 and 1940 aerials (where the solar panels are today) belong to Lawrenceville, or not? 

[Ian Mackenzie]

.

[David_Tepper]

"While looking for Seymour Dunn the other day I saw an article mentioning that he was 'engaged' by the Hollwood GC, Hollywood, NJ, in 1897."

Jim Kennedy -

Do you have a link to that article?

Based on reading "Golf Links to West Long Branch, An Historical View," the Hollywood GC (formed in 1898) did not move to its present location until 1912. Its first location was on land in the Elberon/West End neighborhood of Long Branch, NJ, on land leased from the adjacent Hollywood Hotel. (I grew up 1/4 of a mile from that site. )  In 1902, the HGC moved to a new course (possibly designed by Tom Bendelow) in West Long Branch.

In 1912, HGC moved to its current location in Deal. The West Long Branch course was taken over by the Norwood Golf Club and that course was re-designed by AW Tillinghast.

http://www.westlongbranch.org/history/golf.html

There is no mention of Seymour Dunn in this article, which does in no way mean he may not have been involved!

DT 

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,


NYTimes - July26,1897 -pg.2



Probably the reason for the Reid attribution, from the school's archive. There is a story attached about the two boys, Haviland, and Reid, laying out some 'holes' to play over.
 

[David_Tepper]

Jim Kennedy -

Thanks for posting that article about Seymour Dunn & HGC. That 9-hole site adjacent to the Hollywood Hotel certainly does jibe with the info in the West Long Branch article.

My family moved into that area in the mid-1950's. The site of the course was abandoned and overgrown by then. So was the site of the Tillinghast-designed Norwood course. I remember when the Hollywood Hotel burned down in March, 1961.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1jiypvv3QJ   

DT

[MCirba]

Mike,
Did the 'big' course in the 1931 and 1940 aerials (where the solar panels are today) belong to Lawrenceville, or not?

Jim,

As far as I've been able to determine it was called Longacres Golf Club and was 18 holes.

From April 12, 1935;

The golf team, under the coaching of Mr. Shea, is shaping up very nicely. The team faces a schedule similar to last year's, but will be more experienced, because of the agreement made with the Longacres Golf Club allowing the varsity squad to 'practice and play home games there. The Longacres course is much more difficult than the School course, which is considered fairly easy. Its narrow fairways, numerous sand traps, and eighteen holes will give the team the experience needed to play on such difficult courses as at Greenwich and Pottstown.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Lawrence, Friday, January 26, 1934; Section: Front page, Page: 1

Who was John Stout? Sounds like he made big revisions to the course in 1934.Was the Progress Golf Club the course where the solar field is today?

ed: Mike, just saw your Longacres post.
 

[MCirba]

By 1938 Longacres Golf Club became known as Greenacres Country Club, which has a course south of the School to this day.  The new course was an Alfred Tull of Emmet/Tull Design, I believe.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I was just going to ask about that.


There are a few mentions of Progress Golf Club as the one abutting the school.


Looks like John Stout was a rep for A.G Spaulding & Co. and the pro at the school in the mid '30s.

[MCirba]

Jim,

I believe you're correct that the adjacent course was indeed Progress Golf Club and not Longacres/Greenacres.

Today's existing course at Greenacres was there by 1931 and must have been the one that Mr. Shea arranged for them to play in the 1930s.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Today's existing course at Greenacres was there by 1931 and must have been the one that Mr. Shea arranged for them to play in the 1930s.

Same time frame as the work that was being done to the course by Stout.

[MCirba]

Jim,

Yep.   Other than the possible Seymour Dunn connection, it seems the picture is pretty clearly in view with Swan, Norton, Stout, and Gordon.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tough call. 


I read that one of the faculty members or one of the administrators wanted the school to purchase Progress GC. That would have been a good alternative for them at the time, and in the future.

[Rory Connaughton]

Ian,


We have developed a great fondness for our GVC friends over the years . . they, in turn, have tolerated us with good humor. Very similar to my relationship with L'Ville friends!  You are always welcome in Lancaster.

[Mark_Fine]

To everyone - GREAT INFORMATION!  I just got back in my office and am now heading out again but I have lots to look over.  Keep it coming.  It is always so fascinating to try to get to the true facts surrounding these early courses.  I did a quick scan of some of what you guys have uncovered so far and it still seems like their might have been some kind of course there pre-1900.  I am also trying to figure out what the solar farm was built on.  One thing I am sure of is that what is there now is mostly Gordon.  I am still very interested in determining the earliest routing.  Thanks again to all!!!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,

I think the answer you seek about the solar farm is found in an article titled "In Corpore Sano" by the Asst. Head of School and Athletic Director, Alton R. Hyatt. He speaks about "Dr. Abbott" and what he was able to accomplish for the Academy, and some of things he could not, and one of those dreams that got away was the golf course cum Solar Farm that was owned by the Progress Golf Club. You'll find the account in the Lawrence Alumni Bulletin of October 1st. 1934. 


     

[Tim_Weiman]

Is a Hill-L'Ville home and home (Brookside/Lawrenceville) the next big event on the GCA calendar?


Tim, what class were you? (I was '88).


My recollection is that one of the nines at Brookside was owned by the School and the ground for the second nine leased to the club.
The Gordons worked there in the 1950's so I would not be surprised if Mike's guess is as to the Gordon involvement at L'Ville is accurate.

Rory,


1974

[Bret Lawrence]

John Reid Jr attended Lawrenceville, graduating with the Class of 1895. This article makes it sound like he laid out a very early rudimentary course while attending school. 


The Sun., December 27, 1908:



Here is a link to the entire article (column 5):


http://tinyurl.com/zdsxk2s