[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems to me the orientation of the green, its shallowness and the fact that it slopes downward toward the rear are the key architectural elements of the hole and that the bunkers are superfluous, at least for the better player.  Imagine the fairway being ridiculously wide.   Would it not remain an outstanding strategic hole?  One that can be built anywhere?

Fire away.

Mike

[JMEvensky]

From The Lurker:

Riviera's 10th was bunkerless greenside as originally designed by George Thomas Jr,, at least in its first few years (see the book The Captain by Geoff Shackelford pges 161-164, including two revelatory early (1927) photos. The foregoing is more evidence of why not only George Thomas Jr (The Captain) was a genius in golf architecture, but why Geoff Shackelford is as well with his historic architecture research and writing!

[DMoriarty]

Riviera No. 10: Better Without the Bunkers?
(sort of awkward to read because Shivas' posts have been deleted.)

Article from Geoff
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/2/16/above-rivieras-10th-before-greenside-bunkers-added.html

and a photo from the above article:

[Pete Lavallee]

I'll have to admit that this version tempts the golfer to pay straight for the hole much more than the current version. The real question is: was the second shot to easy to get close to the hole from the middle of the fairway on the unbunkered version? Surely the Lurker was around in the late 20's, perhaps he can answer!

[Mike Hendren]

David, thank you for taking the time to dig up Shivas' thread.  I totally expected to get laughed off the site when I posted this.

Pete, the straight on approach looks like a sucker play that I'd fall for.

Great photograph that appears to show two distinct elevations on the green.  Is that accurate?

Also interesting that there are ornamentals well left but not in the A location they occupy today.

The extensive new tree plantings are a harbinger of things to come, no?

Mike

[JMEvensky]

"Surely the Lurker was around in the late 20's, perhaps he can answer!"



Pete Lavalee; No sir; I'm old, but I ain't quite that old; at least not yet anyway. Most all my information and research on Riviera's architectural history comes directly from two main sources and probably something over fifteen years ago now. That would be primarily Geoff Shackelford and also Dan Wexler. I do have some interesting supplemental research information on George Thomas Jr though, but it isn't really directly about George Thomas Jr and his career in golf architecture, it's about his father, George Thomas Sr, and how he got so rich in business, that probably allowed his son to become the world class "renaissance" man he became in golf architecture, deep sea fishing, breeding world class roses etc!

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest, what's the prevailing wind direction on this hole?


And, bizarre as it may initially seem, could you once-upon-time have played an alternative route up the right side of the hole?



Atb

[Scott Weersing]

We all like the short par 4s with or without bunkers. The PGA Tour and the USGA have realized that they very interesting in tournament play, for example, no. 17 at TPC Scottsdale and No. 16 at Chambers Bay on Sunday.


 I love the 12th hole at Rustic. Yes it has a bunker down the left hand side and OB, but it is great hole with domed green.


So should short par 4s have no bunkers? I would say yes, let the green and the slope of the land make the hole harder than it appears.

[Jim Nugent]

Some questions that come to mind after seeing that photo:

1.  When did Riviera add the greenside bunkers?

2.  Who did it and why?

3.  How did scores compare before and after? 

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:


I do think there is something about the big fairway bunker that makes players want to hit over the middle of it, even though they should only be hitting over the far left corner, and that has always been a big part of the hole.


The greenside bunkers would be superfluous, if the green and approach were maintained correctly, but I do wonder whether the kikuyu would make the front of the green so soft that many drives would stop where the resulting chip shot wouldn't be so tough.

[BCrosby]

I don't recall seeing before the picture of the original 10th David M. posted above. To design a 305 yard par 4 on essentially flat terrain without a greenside bunker took enormous architectural self confidence.

To the point that I can't imagine many modern architects designing the same sort of hole. (Which is perhaps why we don't see many other holes like it.) It's been said here before - it is almost always gutsier to build nothing than to build something.

Bob   

[Sam Kestin]

I think the quality of such a hole would depend largely on the construct of the greensite.


As it stands now, to my mind, most of the strategic brilliance of the hole is derived from what a nightmare place to put the ball that right bunker is. You know on both your first and second shots at ten what a disaster it would be to miss either one to the right strictly because of that bunker. A five from there is generally the best case scenario and even the scratch or better players probably only get it up and in from there 1/10 times or less.

If you replaced the bunkers with chipping areas (which seem to be something of a new trend around Riviera--e.g. at the first, fifth and seventh) I fear that missing in that spot would not be nearly the nightmare it is today--and thus would erode the strategic challenge of the rest of the hole. You could easily just putt the ball on the green or hit a little pitch and run from there. It would take some touch, sure, but it would be (in my mind) dramatically easier than handling that bunker shot. You'd also be extremely unlikely to end up putting/chipping from there across the green and down the other side.


Truly brutal rough might accomplish the same thing that the bunkering does--and arguably more so since spinning the ball out of a buried Kikuyu lie is next to impossible. That having been said--I do think that in close (unlike the old photo) it would look a little strange and somewhat out of character.

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