[Thomas Dai]

While playing recently I observed a newly refurbished revetted bunker that had not yet had any sand installed. It appeared to be pretty impressive 'as is' and I wondered what sand less revetted bunkers, ie with a grass base, would be like as features on courses (are there any and if so where?).


Would one be harder/easier to play from than if sand were present? What would the maintenance aspects be like? What about from the rules perspective, eg if they had rainwater water in it would conditions then mean casual water?


Thoughts welcome.


Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

How you gonna rake a divot.

[Tim Gallant]

How you gonna rake a divot.

  This made me laugh out loud. Thank you Mr. Kavanaugh!

[Michael Felton]

If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

[Jon Wiggett]

If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon

[Michael Felton]

If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon

Fair point. I think of revetted bunkers and I think of something like this:

[Jon Wiggett]

If you were anywhere close to the lip, it would be quite a bit harder to get out I would think. If you were further back, it would be quite a bit easier. That's assuming that the grass was cut short. If it was rough, then it would depend entirely on the lie. If it was greenside, it would be brutal.

As long as they are not to deep then it should not be too hard. Also, a decent slope near the base of the face to ensure a decent bit of distance from it would also be a good thing.

Jon

Fair point. I think of revetted bunkers and I think of something like this:

Michael,

me too and there are many examples of such but in reality the majority of revetted bunkers are not of the deep pot variety.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Generally sand bunkers these days present less of a hazard than they once did and also, due to the desire of some to have them almost manicured, they seem to take up quite a significant amount of maintenance time, as has been discussed on several recent threads.


Would having some grass bunkers, or rather hollows, that are revetted - or indeed some other type of firm angled face (sleepers?) that doesn't need to be mowed - be a way of having an occasional really severe hazard, one that shouts to you "I'm nasty, take me on if you dare or stay away". And if the base of the hollow has a few divots, well so what!

Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Thomas,

Its an interesting thought, but if you don't have any sand in the "bunker", why go to all the hassle and expen$e of putting in the revetted face?

Why not just have a steep grass covered face that one must navigate?  I know Jim Engh uses some pretty steep slopes on his courses to act as "hazards" without being sand or water.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Kalen,


I'm really just trying to explore the issue, find pro's and con's etc.


I did think of the expens and hassle of revetting and the benefits grassed banks but grass banks tend to need regular mowing and if not the ball can 'hang-up' and that brings about other issues. Plus a grassed bank doesn't look as visually intimidating as revetted (or sleepered etc).


Perhaps something like a native low growing plant, like a heather covered face in an area where heather grows naturally might also fit the bill in terms of intimidation, although this could lead to other issues, like hunting for 'lost' balls etc, plus how well would such plants grow on near vertical faces?


As I said above I'm just trying to explore the issue so thoughts welcome.


Atb


 

[James Boon]

Thomas,


There are a few examples of revetted features without sand at Castle Stuart. From memory the left of the short par 4 3rd has some small ones which are just revetted "eyebrows" to make you have to pitch over then rather than putt or chip and run up the bank. I also recall one just short of the 18th green that was deeper and more bunker like with a revetted face though without sand. A few pictures here... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=42035.0


Interesting idea and I like the idea of variety but I'm no expert regarding the practicalities...


Cheers,


James

[Sean_A]

ATB


If you create a gathering grass bunker similar to revetted pots it will be a divot fest.  To me its seems far more simple to create earthworks above ground and forget digging a hole which needs maintenance.  If you must dig holes, use a style which doesn't need much maintenance.   


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

James,

I'd forgotten about that feature on the 18th at Castle Stuart.

I toyed with doing something similar to the right of the 6th green on the Kilmore 9 but threw it out in the end as a little contrived for that particular site.

I do like the feature though and would consider it in future. Best as a retaining wall as opposed to an actual grass bunker.

[Niall C]

James/Ally


Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee and more to the point eliminates the run up option which kind of runs contrary to what CS is supposed to be about. The bank in front of the 18th does the job well enough without the need for a collection point for divots. Again, this feature tends to promote the aerial game even if it doesn't eliminate the ground game altogether. Just MHO.


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,

Used best when trying to marry in two levels.

Ally

[Sean_A]

I don't mind the look of the grass bunker on 18, but you can see the issue of divots...and its obviously a sandy area...why not just fill it with sand?


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Nice examples ref Castle Stuart. Not been to CS (yet) but the one in front of the 18th green, thanks for the link to you splendid phototour James, looks the kind of thing I'm wondering about.


As mentioned earlier, the ground game issue isn't to me an issue as this kind of feature would replace a sand bunker not be in addition to it and the divot issue is not one that fusses me much......don't hit it there, ie "I'm a nasty spot, take me on if you really dare or else play well away from me"..........although if really deemed necessary a small area of turf could always be replaced - you could even have artificial grass there, on second thoughts let's not go down that discussion road just now!!


On links courses would this type of feature would be of benefit in spots where sand is likely to blow out of bunkers and on parkland courses would maintenance work be less in comparison to sand bunkers?


Off now to look at my photos of the 6th on the Kilmore at Carne.


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee

Is this a Scottish expression I'm not familiar with, or a typo?


Regarding Castle Stuart's revetted faces, I think they are inspired by those short sleepered walls on a couple of holes at Rye.  When Gil Hanse worked for me, he mentioned that he'd loved those, and we put one in on a grassy hollow to the right of the 13th green at The Legends in Myrtle Beach.


As with formalized grass bunkers, I wonder if such things are really any more effective than just normal shaping.

[Niall C]

Tom


Not sure if "twee" is of Scottish origin or not but here's a random definition from internet;



twee

twiː/

adjective
BRITISH[/color][/font][/size]




excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental.
"although the film's a bit twee, it's watchable"

[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important]synonyms:[/color]quaint[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]sweet[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]bijou[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]dainty[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], [/color]pretty[color=rgb(135, 135, 135) !important], pretty-pretty; [/t][/color] I used the term in previous discussions regarding the "faux" bunkering at CS, particularly some of the ones way off to the side that had sleepers as you refer to. It's an aesthetic thing but my main objection to the eyebrows, if objection isn't too strong a word, is that they effectively stop someone using the putter which for a lot of golfers north of the border is a real pain. Re the 18th grass bunker, I should declare an interest and say that I've been in it and failed to get out of it. I was lying in a divot if I remember correctly. Niall ps this formatting is becoming a pain

[Tim Gallant]

Re the "eyebrow" on no.3 at CS, looks twee

Is this a Scottish expression I'm not familiar with, or a typo?


Regarding Castle Stuart's revetted faces, I think they are inspired by those short sleepered walls on a couple of holes at Rye.  When Gil Hanse worked for me, he mentioned that he'd loved those, and we put one in on a grassy hollow to the right of the 13th green at The Legends in Myrtle Beach.


As with formalized grass bunkers, I wonder if such things are really any more effective than just normal shaping.

There are indeed a number of these 'sleepered walls' at Rye, particularly on the par 3s if memory serves. I think this is a wonderful feature for a few reasons: it takes the putter out of the hand, meaning that what first appears to be a simple-ish up and down, now becomes more difficult. Also, it is more easy to maintain - i.e. no need to rebuild revetted bunker faces, etc.


I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss

[Michael Felton]

I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss

So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

[Tim Gallant]

I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss

So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

You can. Putt it back up the fairway towards the tee It reminds me of a shot like the 16th at ANGC (although I have never played - so no authority). I have seen at the Masters how if you miss the green and end up in the back-right bunker, it is a near impossible up and down. I would imagine that amateur golfers would find that shot exceedingly difficult even though the miss wasn't terrible. But if you miss in the front bunker near the pond, it should be a relatively easy out with a backstop to help stop the ball.


That's why I like the sleepered brows. Seem tame on the tee in comparison to a deep bunker, but can be just as difficult, if not downright nasty.

[Kalen Braley]

I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss

So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

Michael,

So any green that has a water hazard within 5 feet of it are no good?  I guess you think ANGC #13 is chopped liver then!!   

[Michael Felton]

I found on one hole (believe it was the 14th), I was a mere 5 feet off the left side of the green, but had gone down into a swale. It was a virtually impossibility to get up and down because I couldn't putt (sleeper eyebrow), but there was a slope behind my ball that made any shot but a bump and run (again protected by sleeper) non-existent. It was sublime. People talk about knowing where to miss at Augusta, but I would say the same was true at Rye. I learned the hard way where not to miss

So you missed the green by 5 feet and you had no shot you could play? That strikes me as a little much. I have no problem with it being very difficult, but there should be something you can do.

Michael,

So any green that has a water hazard within 5 feet of it are no good?  I guess you think ANGC #13 is chopped liver then!!   

I think in my mind, there is a difference between a water hazard, which you know is there and the penalty is clear versus an area of grass that I assume has a tendency to put a ball in a virtually unplayable position.

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

If I saw a green with a wicked nasty steep grass face on one side...in my mind I would use just as much caution if it were a water hazard.

Like for example, I think its 16 on PGA West that has that nasty deep bunker on the left side of the green.  I would be just as hesitant to get anywhere near that as if it were a water hazard.  Ditto for the road hole bunker on TOC.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()