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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2017, 12:17:52 PM »
Mike:


Nothing definitive.  In Dec. 1906 it was noted that the model would be made after the course was staked out.  From everything I've read, this would have been some time in very early 1907.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2017, 10:48:30 AM »
Sven,

Thanks.   I'm not sure that plasticine model is the same one referred to in the the late 1906/early 1907 news articles mentioning that one would be crafted as soon as the course was staked out.   From the looks of it, the purpose of that model would be to craft a "to be" model, while the bunkering in the one in your photo seems to already be of the sophisticated, detailed "as is" state.  For reference, here's the photo of the model you posted back then.   Can I safely assume this is hanging in the clubhouse?



For instance, here's a January 1907 article that refers to the present state of property acquisition, the immediate next steps to lay out the course over the coming months, and the plan to build a "miniature model" after that.   The most detailed article at the time stated that the model would be used "as a guide to the delvers, gardeners, and engineers who will begin the actual work of construction in the spring."   (I can provide that article if you'd like but the version I have on this computer is too small for easy reading and I need to find the original on my old one)



What throws me when I look at the bunkering in the model is how to understand that advanced state in terms of timing with the letter Macdonald wrote to Horace Hutchinson that was printed in "Country Life" and reprinted in a New York newspaper in February of 1908 that refers to the vast majority of the bunkering as something that would require additional study based on actual play as was the practice at the time.   In fact, Macdonald himself says that the only bunkering in place is that needed to duplicate positioning on the template holes in question that he was trying to copy.



I'm hoping you can see my cognitive dissonance in trying to juxtapose the timing of the model's creation with the timing of extensive bunkering created during what sounds like 1908-1910 and beyond timeframe.   

It's an interesting exercise trying to better understand the early creation and evolution of this great course.   I would love to hear more about the origins of the model in question if anyone has more information.   Thanks.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 10:52:14 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 11:42:50 AM »
Mike:


Perhaps a detailed study of the bunkers on the model vs. what went on the ground would help in determining if this was a "to be built" or an "as built" model.  One should also take a look at the locations of the tees, as CBM also said they might be adjusted as well depending on how the "ball ran."


All I can tell you now is what you've already stated, that being the intention to produce a model after the course was staked out, which took place in early 1907 (without delving into the argument if the routing had essentially already been determined in CBM's mind when he and Whigham found the formations for the several templates they wanted to include).


Frankly, this is not really an exercise I have any interest in pursuing.  I've read a ton on the creation of NGLA, and until something new comes to light, if it ever does, we're left with the speculation and conjecture that you so abhore.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2017, 12:18:39 PM »
Sven,

I have no issue with speculation and conjecture when it is clearly presented as such in the interest of exploring a line of reasoning, or to use whatever existing evidence we have to explore the validity of a theory.

It is only when it presented as determined fact or the "only possibility" that I have an issue.   Thanks, I hope this helps clarify.

I do appreciate your historical research efforts a great deal, Sven, but I'm not sure why you brought up that old thread here in the first place if you have no interest in further exploration?   I understand and respect your reluctance, however.

For anyone else who might be interested, when I compare the bunkering in that model to the following article showing the plan of the course under construction once the routing had been completed, this August 26th, 1907 article is the first public showing of the planned course.   The first paragraph clearly indicates that an effort was undertaken to show all of the bunkers that had been planned to date.   

As Macdonald himself stated in his letter later that year to Horace Hutchinson, most of the bunkering that appeared at that time only reflected the bunker positioning of those holes abroad he hoped to copy.   It was only over the next few years through observation of play that most of the other bunkers were created.   



Here's a bit of a clearer drawing showing the degree of specificity the artist tried to include.  Note the "Ant Hill Bunkers" on today's 17th.




Even by August of 1910 it appears the work of adding bunkers was still ongoing, this time with some advice from Horace Hutchinson.  It also refers to what seems to be the recent thinking about re-locating the clubhouse.


« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:56:21 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2017, 04:32:38 PM »
Mike:


I posted the link so that others could explore the wealth of minutiae it contained, particularly because John raised some of the points that are exhaustively covered in that thread. 


Let me know when you find something new.  All of this is old news.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2017, 03:33:52 PM »
Sven,

"wealth of minutiae"   I love it.   Thanks.   ;D

John Sabino,

In the interest of seeking "new information", does the new NGLA book contain any additional information about the role of Walter Travis in the laying out and construction of the golf course?

In the book "Scotland's Gift", written in 1928 a few years after the death of Travis, Macdonald mentioned that he "dropped" Travis from the project.

However, nothing in the contemporaneous record  indicates that to be true in the least with news articles from late 1906 through summer 1908 indicating Travis's ongoing involvement.   Indeed, even in the photograph of the "soft opening day" tournament during  the summer of 1910 Travis is pictured sitting right next to Macdonald.

It was only in the subsequent  years that the two men had a falling out after having been good friends for years.   Perhaps sensing what was coming, in November of 1914 Travis wrote the following in "American Golfer".

« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 03:59:16 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Sabino

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2017, 08:24:58 PM »
Mike -  The page that contains the Plasticine relief map of the course says that it was intended to sit on a table and originally hung on a wall in the smoking room. It was put into storage at some point and the then-super Karl Olsen had it repaired and repainted and it hangs in the super's barn now.


The history states that the map was created by Edwin E. Howell in 1911, after play had begun on the finished course, so impossible that it was used to give guidance to workers, shapers, etc. Millard also states that this particular map of the course has been confused with model holes produced for Golf Illustrated in 1914. The illustrations that accompanied that article were photographs taken from relief maps made by Oscar Smith.


It seems like since Millard had access to club records including detailed receipts to pay for all these items, he has the best insight of all into this.


With regard to Travis, is seems like he was involved in the selection of the land. He and H.J. Whigham are described as Macdonald's "chief lieutenants . . . It is clear that Macdonald and Travis were working closely together on the project before it was decided to explore the land in the Shinnecock Hills area." It then goes on to say, "however, Macdonald and Travis would prove an uneasy match as design partners, and Macdonald dismissed his partner shortly after the work began, producing one of the great mysteries of the National's history," although it does not go into any further details about the routing.


John
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2017, 02:07:01 PM »
John,

Thanks for the additional information.   The dating of that model as a "as is" from 1911 makes a lot of sense to me given the sophistication and numbers of the bunkers.   I guess in retrospect it's a great thing that at least one of the models survived to this day, but it would be really interesting as well to find earlier ones to see how the design evolved over time.

As far as Walter Travis...

The other day I typed out a long post (that I accidentally deleted)  that outlined some of the contemporaneous evidence of his involvement with NGLA through the entire design and construction phase, even sitting right alongside Macdonald for a photo during the "soft opening" tournament in the summer of 1910.   I may post this in a few shorter attempts as time permits this week.

Macdonald and Travis had been friends for a number of years, as well as competitors.   They were both based out of NYC and were members together with Emmet at Garden City GC.

They were so close, in fact, that Macdonald asked Travis to be his United States contact to coordinate his communications and activities while he was abroad studying ideal golf holes.   

**EDIT** I should mention that I'm most reliant on and appreciative of the tremendous research work of Joe Bausch, who located most of the articles in question.   The viewpoints and suppositions presented here based on those articles are solely mine.





Later in Nov/Dec when CBM secured the land for his golf course, Travis was named to the Committee who would spend the next several months laying out the golf course before construction commenced in the spring of 1907.

The following snippet of article from 12/15/1906 outlines the anticipated next steps now that the property had been secured and the article after that speaks specifically to the role envisioned for Travis at that juncture.  Arguably, by that time Travis had more direct course construction and design experience than any of the others.  In fact, Travis had spent much of 1906 rolling out his first round of significant changes to the course at Garden City Golf Club.





In April 1907 the following article was written by Walter Travis about the course to be constructed at the National.   You will note that Travis mentions that he's been to the site already multiple times and each visit has revealed more opportunity for the creation of great golf holes.   

Moreover the article mentions that Macdonald will still be soliciting input from some of the best minds abroad in the selection of holes to utilize but has also surrounded himself with men (like Travis) who not only are familiar with the best courses abroad but who have practical experience with the details of course building in the United States.



More to follow...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:12:04 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2017, 02:46:35 PM »
By all accounts, construction proceeded slowly over the site due to the thick brambles and bushes covering most everything, as well as the number of low-lying swampy areas that needed remediation.

Nevertheless, by September of 1907 it was reported that the construction of all the greens had been finished and that the committee in charge was particularly pleased with the Eden hole green, although they were already finding that they would likely need to raise the Cape Hole green as they sometimes found it completely underwater at high tide.

Construction work continued well into 1908 and on July 17th of that year the New York Herald posed an almost full-page article about the progress to date that included the following photograph, indicating that Walter Travis was still part of the design/construction committee. 



Of course, it might be arguable that this photograph may have been from a year or so earlier but the inclusion of a photo of Mortimer Payne and numerous photos of the holes in progress make it more likely all were taken during the same site visit.   The page itself is rather large so if anyone wants to see the entire article I can post it here.

The belief that Walter Travis was still fully involved on the evolutionary design and construction of the project in August 1908, almost 20 months after Macdonald initially secured the land, is buttressed with this snippet from an August 23, 1908 article that lists him as one of the men still involved in coming up with the ideas for the course that Mortimer Payne is faithfully executing.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:13:55 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2017, 03:03:02 PM »
The work continued throughout the remainder of 1908 and 1909, through a drought and an agronomic failure.   

Much of the bunkering schemes would have to wait until the course could be played and that play carefully observed, as was the prevailing custom and wisdom of the time.

By July of 1910, National Golf Links finally had a "soft" opening tournament among some of the better golfers in the Metropolitan District.   The tournament was reported on by Walter Travis for "American Golfer", and in the group tournament photograph that was taken Macdonald and Travis are seated next to each other, hardly appearing as someone who had been "dropped" from the project, as CBM characterized it when he wrote his book eighteen years later after the death of Travis.



Here's the first page of Walter Travis' article about the tournament for "American Golfer", where he gloats on about the unfinished course already being "far and away" the best in this country.



In August of 1910 the New York Evening Post mentioned that the course was nearly finished, but again noted that the placement of various traps, etc. would still need more time and study.   

The course officially opened in 1911.   It is difficult to view this history and see where Travis was "dropped" from the project.

Some events in subsequent years, even as early as the end of 1910, soured the relationship between the two men, as well as between Travis and Devereux Emmet.   As time permits I'll share some of the evidence in that regard which seems to have led to Macdonald seemingly writing Travis out of the NGLA project in later years after seemingly relying on him so heavily in earlier ones.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 03:04:37 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2017, 09:13:34 AM »
The first hint I can find of trouble in paradise between Macdonald and Travis occurred in late 1910, a few months after the "Soft Opening Tournament" at NGLA and before the official opening of the course in 1911.

I think it's fair to say that of anyone Macdonald saw as a mentor, it was Horace Hutchinson.   As seen in the prior August 1910 article, Macdonald hosted Hutchinson at NGLA in the fall of 1910 and Hutchinson played a few other American courses during his visit.   Various articles mentioned that Macdonald was in almost constant contact with Hutchinson seeking advice throughout the several year creation of NGLA, and Hutchinson's picture is displayed prominently in the NGLA chapter of "Scotland's Gift". 

In November 1910, Hutchinson wrote an article in "Metropolitan Magazine" that effusively praised NGLA as basically without fault while essentially trashing all the other courses including Travis's beloved Garden City GC.   His criticisms didn't stop there, however, and went so far as to also trash American golfers for practices Hutchinson felt were outside the spirit and intent of the rules of golf.

In the December issue of "American Golfer",  of which Walter Travis was the Editor, the following scathing reply appeared.   Clearly an aggrieved Travis was very unhappy with Hutchinson's opinions, something which would not have escaped notice of one Charles Blair Macdonald.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 09:15:20 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 10:02:43 AM »
One has to wonder what precipitated such a personalized response from Walter Travis to writings by Horace Hutchinson regarding slights against American golf and golf courses?

After he won the 1904 British Amateur Championship, Travis spoke very highly of Hutchinson, reportedly saying; "All things considered, the golfer whom I most admired as a player was Horace Hutchinson. Over here we have read so many of his books and spoken of him so long as a veteran that one is surprised to find he is only forty-seven years old. He plays every shot for what it is worth and in perfect style, as free as any supple youth, and, all told, I pronounce him, to my mind, the ideal golfer."

By 1908 Hutchinson was elected the first English Captain of the Royal & Ancient.    Walter Travis had unexpectedly won the 1904 British Amateur using what was known as the Schenectady Putter, a center-shafted model.   The news of Travis's victory was generally seen as a cause for celebration in the US while a cause for some dismay and embarrassment in Great Britain.   

More about the history of the Schenectady putter can be found at these links;

http://capitalareagolf.com/general/this-day-in-history-steel-shafts

http://gremsdoolittlelibrary.blogspot.com/2013/03/schenectady-inventor-revolutionized-golf.html

As mentioned and documented, all still seemed well between Macdonald and Travis into the summer of 1910 through the soft opening tournament at NGLA.   There was no indication that Travis was "dropped" from the project and documentation he was there from earlier founder solicitations in the spring of 1906, through land acquisition, through the laying out and selection of the holes, well into the construction process happening into the summer of 1908 and sitting alongside CBM in the group photo at the soft opening in the summer of 1910.

More to follow;
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 10:04:46 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 10:27:35 AM »
Later in 1910, the R&A that was Captained by Horace Hutchinson ruled center-shafted putters illegal for use.

Although it was denied, it was seen by many as a direct reaction and response to Travis's 1904 British Amateur win.  The fact that Travis' good friend Charles Blair Macdonald was on the R&A Rules Committee had to have stung Travis a great deal and probably felt like a personal slap in the face.   

Macdonald himself tried to explain the ruling in a circular for the USGA but given the popularity of that style putter in the United States the USGA didn't follow the R&A's lead, the first time in history.   The Schenectady putter and other center-shafted models continued to be used legally in the US, although Travis discontinued to use one, probably considering the fact that he wanted to compete internationally.

This schism in the rules continued until the 1950s, when the R&A finally dropped their ban on center-shafted clubs.

In January 1911, one month after ghost-writing his response to Hutchinson's criticisms, Travis lashed out against the R&A ruling in an eight page diatribe that subtly attacked Macdonald, directly blamed the R&A, involved a US President, and ended up almost calling for a revolution against the R&A in response.   

Macdonald, who believed it necessary to the health and future success of the game that all other countries follow the lead of the Royal and Ancient, was aghast and defensive.   

It is likely that this was the cause of the lifelong future division between Macdonald and Travis (and probably Emmet) after many years of friendship and cooperation in building the National Golf Links of America.   As the course/club didn't officially open until later in 1911, Macdonald was still technically correct in 1928 when he wrote that "I later dropped Travis."

Here is the American Golfer article that Travis penned, in entirety, courtesy of the AAFLA website;









"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2017, 10:57:43 AM »
Charles Blair Macdonald barely let the ink settle on Travis's response before rebutting in kind in a public forum.   This article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle published January 8th, 1911 shows a clearly aggrieved Macdonald giving it to Travis with both barrels.   He also tries to defend the ruling, and clings to the R&A as being the way, truth, and light of all things golf.   Charles Macdonald was not a man to be trifled with; he reportedly wrote a nephew of his out of his will over a perceived golf affront.   There is little doubt that he would have done much the same with Travis given that this would have been seen as a direct challenge to Macdonald's golf-related somewhat authoritarian nature in the United States.

As much as it may have later clouded the history of what actually happened with Travis's role at NGLA, his insistence that the USGA adhere as much as possible to the R&A may have actually done much to save and promote golf in the US and worldwide.




Perhaps later sensing he was being written out of the NGLA creation story, Travis inserted this blurb in the November 1914 "American Golfer" magazine;



Finally, after WWI, Travis' old pal Devereux Emmet tried to make peace with the following letter to Travis.   It is not known if Travis ever responded;




« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:22:42 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2017, 09:52:30 AM »
Given the overwhelming response(s) I've received here and the YUGE subsequent discussion of events, I thought I'd wrap this up today before we consume too much of Ran's bandwidth and take down the Interweb.   ;D

I think it's important to note here that although it's likely that Macdonald essentially wrote Travis out of the history of NGLA, in no way am I implying that anyone but CBM was the chief driving force and principal designer of National Golf Links of America.   Even Walter Travis said so (as seen below) before they had a breakdown in their friendship over the Schenectady Putter issue, which was later compounded by Travis losing his amateur status due to being a paid golf course architect.

But I think it's also important to note that like many other "amateur architects", such as George Crump at Pine Valley, Macdonald also relied heavily on the input and advice of other knowledgeable individuals both here and abroad during the course of creating his labor of love.   Certainly in the US in the first decade of the 20th century Walter Travis had as much design knowledge as anyone, and wrote detailed articles extolling the break from the regimented, cross-bunkered, geometric designs so prevalent at the time to a new, more strategic, and more varied form of the game.   His documented involvement at NGLA from 1906 through 1908 when the holes were selected and the features built is indisputable based on the evidence, and if not for the falling out the men had I'm rather sure he would have been a bigger part of Macdonald's NGLA story. 

To get a good sense of exactly how Travis felt about NGLA before the two men had their brouhaha, here is the entire Walter Travis article published in American Golfer in August 1910 (courtesy of aafla.org), complete with some terrific photos, reporting on the "soft opening" tournament that took place in July 1910.   Thanks to anyone who followed along.








"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2017, 10:25:16 AM »
Mike,


I have enjoyed the articles you recently posted regarding Travis and Macdonald.  I have always been curious as to what transpired between the two men. 


Macdonald makes it clear in his book that Travis was eventually dropped from the project, but it is difficult to determine exactly when this happened.  I am not completely sold on the two articles in 1908 that mention Travis.  They don't exactly convince me that Travis was still part of the project.  I could be wrong?


To me, it seems like there is a possibility that Travis was dropped from the project, but was still invited to take part in the 1910 tournament.   Travis did make it clear in his 1910 article that this was an invitation from the founders of the club.


The wording Travis uses in his 1914 article "Facts for Posterity" also reads to me like Travis was part of the project very early, but not much longer.  He uses words like  "primarily" and "as far as the several holes are concerned".   To me this doesn't sound like Travis was part of the scheme from start to finish.


One more reference that may be helpful is Macdonalds letter to the Founders in 1912.  In this book which can be found on the USGA website, Macdonald never mentions Travis once.  Macdonald dedicates almost three pages to thanking people (mostly founders) for bringing this project to life.  He had plenty of opportunities to thank Travis, but instead did not mention him. 


The question I have regarding Travis is why wasn't he a Founding member of the club? Surely, he must have received an invitation.  If your friend was about to build the next big thing in golf, wouldn't you want to be a part of it?  Was he ever an associate member?


Bret

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 10:55:37 AM »
Mike,


I have enjoyed the articles you recently posted regarding Travis and Macdonald.  I have always been curious as to what transpired between the two men. 


Macdonald makes it clear in his book that Travis was eventually dropped from the project, but it is difficult to determine exactly when this happened.  I am not completely sold on the two articles in 1908 that mention Travis.  They don't exactly convince me that Travis was still part of the project.  I could be wrong?


To me, it seems like there is a possibility that Travis was dropped from the project, but was still invited to take part in the 1910 tournament.   Travis did make it clear in his 1910 article that this was an invitation from the founders of the club.


The wording Travis uses in his 1914 article "Facts for Posterity" also reads to me like Travis was part of the project very early, but not much longer.  He uses words like  "primarily" and "as far as the several holes are concerned".   To me this doesn't sound like Travis was part of the scheme from start to finish.


One more reference that may be helpful is Macdonalds letter to the Founders in 1912.  In this book which can be found on the USGA website, Macdonald never mentions Travis once.  Macdonald dedicates almost three pages to thanking people (mostly founders) for bringing this project to life.  He had plenty of opportunities to thank Travis, but instead did not mention him. 


The question I have regarding Travis is why wasn't he a Founding member of the club? Surely, he must have received an invitation.  If your friend was about to build the next big thing in golf, wouldn't you want to be a part of it?  Was he ever an associate member?


Bret

Hi Bret,

Some great questions, thanks.   

I would think by 1912 when CBM wrote his letter to the Founders that his relationship with Travis was already largely kaput.   

It might be helpful to share the 1908 articles in their entirety for context and I really don't find anything in them to make me believe they are based on boiler-plate reiteration of old news, but I could be wrong, as well.

Speculating based on his somewhat volatile personality, I think if CBM had seen a center-page photo of Travis portrayed as laying out NGLA with Macdonald and Whigham and it wasn't true he'd be ringing some newspapers phones off the hook screaming "FAKE NEWS!"  ;)

I look at the "Facts for Posterity" slightly differently.   I think by that point it was pretty clear that things were never going to get better between Travis, Macdonald, and Emmet, and he seemed particularly proud of the fact that he was there when the holes were largely determined and sited and when the course was re-named, which I think was also around 1908-09 if memory serves.

As far as membership, I think of Walter Travis as the Tom Paul of his time.   Why join a club you can play anytime through your friends?   :)

I may be wrong. 

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2017, 12:01:47 PM »
Here's the entire July 1908 New York Herald article.   I apologize for the size. 

Does anyone know when Mortimer Payne came onto the project?

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2017, 12:12:07 PM »
Mike,


Interestingly, in the full article you posted from the American Golfer-April 1910, Walter J. Travis is listed as an "original" founder??? The list from 1912 and all the previous articles you have posted, do not include Travis as a Founder. The article also shows that Macdonald and Travis played together in that invitation tourney, winning the four ball match with an 81 (Travis had 83) and Travis beating Macdonald in the first round.


You may be correct that Travis was written out after these two had a falling out.  Do we know for sure they had a falling out?  Or were they just having heated arguments over the Rules of Golf? 


I still have to go with Macdonald and believe Travis was released before the scheme was completed, which would explain why he didn't receive any credit. Whether that was in 1908 or 1909 or later I don't really know?  If he had seen it through to completion as Emmet and Whigham did, I believe he would have received equal appreciation from Macdonald. That's just my view!




Bret


« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 12:21:30 PM by Bret Lawrence »

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2017, 02:06:34 PM »
Bret,

The two definitely had a falling out, sadly.    One didn't cross Charles Blair Macdonald lightly and I think it was more the challenge Travis presented to advocating for a US golf body quite independent from the R&A that was his most egregious sin in CBM's eyes.   He viewed the R&A much like good Catholics view the Vatican, as not only the home of his religion, but the authoritative body and in retrospect, I think he was right.

I'm going to present the article in two parts below for easier readability.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 01:18:20 PM »
Bret Lawrence,

I also think it would be easier to view the July 19, 1908 New York Herald article as possibly a "one-off" if not for the following August 23rd, 1908 New York Tribune article that was published a month later.   
   
The article again provides evidence that Walter J. Travis was still on the job over 20 months after the property had been acquired.  A number of things about the article make it sounds like its based on a first-hand visit, and not some older boilerplate or word of mouth account.   See what you think.





« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 01:20:37 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2017, 01:37:33 PM »
Mike,


I would agree that the description of the course sounds like a first-hand visit.  The author notes Travis as a co-worker and then goes on to say that Mortimer Payne is carrying out the suggestions and ideas of Macdonald, Findlay and Travis.   


To me this could be read two different ways.  One, is that Travis is still part of the committee and is involved in the construction of the golf course.  The second way I read it is that now the golf course is under construction, Mortimer Payne is just carrying out the design laid out in the first five months of 1907, which we all know Travis was a part of. 


The timing of the article is just after the incorporation and if you notice, Travis is not listed as a Founder.  To me this is the biggest reason I don't think Travis was part of the project anymore.  Why would Travis write himself in as a Founder in 1910, but there is no sign of him on the list published in 1908?


This article also shows that by August of 1908, the club was to be named The National Golf Links of America.  Everything Travis owned up to in his 1914 article was accomplished by August of 1908. 


Like I said earlier, I don't know exactly when Travis was let go from this project and I am open to new information, but the way Macdonald words it in his book, it sounds like the timing was between laying out the course and constructing it.  I have no doubt that Travis was there in 1910 to give more ideas and opinions of the course, I just don't think he was part of the committee anymore.  That's just how I see it.


Bret

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 03:48:17 PM »
Bret,

Thanks for the feedback.

One thing I find interesting in support of Travis being involved at least into 1908 is that in 1914 he claimed that he was the one who convinced Macdonald that the course, originally "National Golf Course", be re-named "National Golf Links" as more appropriately fitting and probably the only course in the US at that time deserving of the title, a fact he mentioned in his August 1910 "American Golfer" article, as well. 

The first mention I find of "National Golf Links" as opposed to "National Golf Course" was late spring of 1908 when the club was incorporated.   Prior to then, all news accounts referred to it as "Course".

The only other bit of info I've come across related to Travis involvement through the site selection, selection of the holes to be copied, and the site construction is this August 10th, 1907 "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" article that mentions Travis.   One of the things I find fascinating with this article is the anticipation that a great deal of work will be needed by "landscape architects" to get the desired affects on the holes in question.

From a timeline standpoint I think it gives us a pretty good sense of how things progressed between January through July 1907, and in September of 1907 it was reported that all the greens had been built, the committee in charge was pleased with them, but that some like the Cape hole needed raising due to high-tide flooding.   

Thanks again for a nice discussion on the fascinating topic of the creation and evolution of NGLA.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jack Carney

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2017, 08:21:37 PM »
Nice find!


Guys, Macdonald's definition of a Cape is a peninsula *green* jutting out into water, not an angled tee shot. Like the Cape at NGLA.


http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLA.html


That was the definition by CBM as evidenced by the original design of Hole 14 at NGL. However, after watching his grandson drive the green, after boasting of such in the bar, CBM moved the green the next week and it was no longer a peninsula green. Since then the term cape hole has come to define the angle of the tee shot at NGL #14 in cutting off as much as the player dares. Even used by CBM himself at Mid Ocean

MCirba

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Re: The Original Evangelist of Golf
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2017, 10:26:18 AM »
Jack,

I wasn't aware of CBM moving that green due to it having been driven.   Interesting information, and certainly gives some insight into his thinking.

Bret,

One last bit of information related to the timing of Walter Travis and his involvement with the planning, locating, laying out, and construction of NGLA comes from CBM's 1912 letter to his Founders, where Travis has completely disappeared from the scene despite his obvious and well-documented involvement in the project from 1906 through at minimum 1907 and very likely 1908 and probably beyond until their falling out around the Hutchinson criticisms, the Schenectady Putter dispute and CBM's offense at Travis's suggestion that the USGA break from the R&A. 

It is interesting that CBM somewhat couched his remarks by making them specifically about those Founders who helped with the project, yet later he credits others without a mention of Walter Travis, who was evidently a non-entity to Macdonald by that time.

CBM wrote;

Co-operation of Founders

In the accomplishment of this work I
have had cause to call upon the following
Founders in their various capacities, and
we are much indebted to them for their
assistance:

For aid in the original purchase of the
land and in the laying out of the course
we must thank Mr. H. J. Whigham and
Mr. Devereux Emmet.   Since then Mr.
James A. Stillman and Mr. Joseph P.
Knapp have been most deeply interested
in the development of the course, and
have expended much time and energy in
helping to bring it to perfection...

...We have also been helped by some of
the most eminent men in the game of golf
abroad, who have taken a most friendly
interest in the undertaking, and I have to
thank among these Mr. Horace G. Hutchinson,
Mr. John L. Low, Mr. 'Harold
H. Hilton, Mr. J. Sutherland, Mr. W. T.
Linskill, the Messrs. Walter and Charles
Whigham, Mr. Patrick Murray, Mr. Alexander
MacFee, and the late Mr. C. H.


Finally, he also mentions those outside the organization, but again no mention of Walter Travis.

It is but proper, too, that I should say
a word of thanks to those outside of our
organization who have aided the undertaking.
I cannot speak too strongly of
the work of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, civil
engineer and surveyor, of Southampton.
In the purchase of our property, in surveying
the same, in his influence with the
community on our behalf, and in every
respect, his services have been of inestimable
value, and I trust that the club
will extend to him the courtesies of the
clubhouse during his lifetime.


It is pretty clear I believe that one did not cross Charles Blair Macdonald without permanent consequences! 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/