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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 12:38:52 PM »
Over the course of a four hour round it is far more relaxing to know 79 will take the day as opposed to 69. Once a course becomes too easy the pressure to play all 18 holes well escalates. I love a course where another double is just a double.

Tim Passalacqua

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 12:53:25 PM »
For me I don't mind hard as long as I don't have to spend time looking for balls and fretting about water all over the place. There are different degrees of hard...........

By far the best post.  So simple and to the point.  Why can't there be compromise.  Firmer greens and shorter rough, instead of long rough and soft greens?


Ben,


This is why Pinehurst No. 2 and Olympic Lake are so high in my book.  Great challenges due to the ground they are built on and the green/green surrounds, but neither have water and almost all the greens will accept a running shot.  Great for the 15 handicap to get around with no lost balls and can test the best from the back tees.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2016, 12:59:29 PM »
Tim,

Looks like your newer to the site...you missed this thread from a few years back!!  ;D

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51429

Andrew Carr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2016, 01:05:08 PM »
I'm sorry Andrew, but my BS meter just blew its lid off.

Are you saying that if you got an invite to play ANGC, the Monday after the tourney, (from the correct tees), that you would turn that down?

GMAFB....that's probably the most absurd thing I've read on this site in a long time.

Sorry, just calling it how I see it!  ;)

I see I should have qualified my statement.  I'm not an idiot, I would accept the invitation because it is a rare life experience, but John's statement was "
Are there really golfers in the world who wouldn't want to play ANGC under tournament conditions."  It's not something I want to do.  I want to see Chicago Golf, I want to play Niagara on the Lake.  ANGC should be a place of history and it is in a tournament sense, but it's like a beautiful colonial house that has been decorated with peach formica countertops and linoleum flooring.  They had something beautiful but they have strayed so far from the original design in an effort to be modern that it simply fails to impress me.


Also, I played Kiawah in PGA Championship conditions in the event they held and as much as I loved Kiawah, the experience of playing "tournament conditions" isn't exactly fun.  I'll take NGLA and you can keep ANGC.   8)

Brad Wilbur

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2016, 01:23:24 PM »
Doesn't the meaning of hard need further clarification?   I played "Foxy" at Dornoch twice and found it to be an extremely hard hole, but I enjoyed it immensely.  On the other hand, I do not enjoy in the least playing a course where finding your ball in the 6" rough is oftentimes impossible.  Water right and water left is another variation of hard that I think is overrated. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 01:43:05 PM »
Hard and easy - this old thread may have some input -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59515.msg1401484.html#msg1401484


Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2016, 01:59:27 PM »
I'm sorry Andrew, but my BS meter just blew its lid off.

Are you saying that if you got an invite to play ANGC, the Monday after the tourney, (from the correct tees), that you would turn that down?

GMAFB....that's probably the most absurd thing I've read on this site in a long time.

Sorry, just calling it how I see it!  ;)

I see I should have qualified my statement.  I'm not an idiot, I would accept the invitation because it is a rare life experience, but John's statement was "
Are there really golfers in the world who wouldn't want to play ANGC under tournament conditions."  It's not something I want to do.  I want to see Chicago Golf, I want to play Niagara on the Lake.  ANGC should be a place of history and it is in a tournament sense, but it's like a beautiful colonial house that has been decorated with peach formica countertops and linoleum flooring.  They had something beautiful but they have strayed so far from the original design in an effort to be modern that it simply fails to impress me.


Also, I played Kiawah in PGA Championship conditions in the event they held and as much as I loved Kiawah, the experience of playing "tournament conditions" isn't exactly fun.  I'll take NGLA and you can keep ANGC.   8)

Hey Andrew its all good, just joshing with you...mostly!!   ;D

P.S.  It wouldn't even take a "play the course" Invite to get me on the next plane out there.  Just to see it in person for a couple of days during practice rounds would be beyond terrific/bucket list item!!

Joe Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2016, 02:09:19 PM »


At the risk of beating a dead horse—which surely this thread is, yes?—it seems to me that it isn’t that golfers like “hard” courses, exactly, it’s that many prefer, or think they prefer, “fair” courses: that is, courses that tend to demand a single, high skill shot on every hole, rather than providing multiple paths to the green. The usual golfer, knowing that the hole demands a shot he does not possess—a very long drive to a particular corner, or a high lofted shot that stops on a dime—thus thinks the course requires a high skill set, and thus a course that requires high skill becomes defined as “good.” Logically speaking, this is begging the question—and not only that, but it effectively cedes control of the game to players who naturally choose architecture that best rewards them. Combatting the issue, then, requires education. Why should “better” players be allowed to control course architecture?   

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2016, 02:34:04 PM »
Was out in San Diego for the Golf Industry Show and played Torrey Pines South.  We were two weeks out from the Farmers National so the rough had been trimmed slightly but still very very penal.  Greens were still probably rolling 12+, if you were above the hole you'd see a lot of 6'+ putts coming back.  What I witnessed was a big disservice to the game as we struggle through a 6hr round due to many people playing a course that put them way over their ski tips.  We were paired with 2 guys that should have played the course from 5200yds and still probably wouldn't have broken 100.  If it wasn't for the 2 in our group, the 4some ahead was even worse. 


Yes, having challenge to a golf course is needed and can be enjoyable but there is a fine line.  I hear it all the time at the club I'm Super at; we're making the course too EASY.  My question always is; "has your handicap significantly dropped?"  Usually the answer is no.  We need to plant more trees, add more bunkers, why not throw a clowns mouth and a windmill up while we're at it.  Golf should be fun but a fair test of ones game.  EGO needs to take a step aside and players need to learn or be educated on playing the proper course for their capabilities.  After that round at Torrey I could care less to pick up my golf clubs anytime soon; if it wasn't for paying $225, being with a good friend whom had never played it, the Pacific Ocean, jets doing flybys, and lastly the 78 degrees no wind and not a cloud in the sky; I would have walk off the course after 4 holes.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:37:29 PM by Justin VanLanduit »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2016, 03:09:41 PM »
For me I don't mind hard as long as I don't have to spend time looking for balls and fretting about water all over the place. There are different degrees of hard...........


I like this response a lot. For me personally, and speaking as a lesser golfer, it's all about HOW a course is difficult. If it is difficult to see the right play, if it is difficult to choose the right shot/club, if it is difficult to imagine the proper short game shot (because there are many choices), if it see the line to make the putt, then I'm intrigued.


If it's simply difficult to judge the distance my hack out wedge is going to fly out of deep rough, or whether I've shaded the right amount when playing away from water, or if I've judged how much this gawdawful 8 iron is going to be affected by a 50 ft drop, or how hard I have to swing to try to hit a flop shot out of this thick rough...then I'm not intrigued, I'm probably annoyed.


But hey, it's still golf and still fun.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2016, 03:29:43 PM »
After reading this thread I am beginning to feel I wasted my money going to Scotland to play all those courses I had thought were great.    ???

I guess if only the hard courses are good than I should have just played the penal ones in the states with lots of water and 25 yd fairways.  >:(

It is sad to realize that even TOC isn't a good course, much less great because it is just to easy.  I loved playing it, but I shot below my handicap so it just doesn't cut the mustard.   :-\

My judgment regarding (average - good or great) must be terrible.   I had the most fun EVER on a golf course at N Berwick and I would have called it great.   Now I find out it is mediocre.   I loved Fraserburgh but it must be a 2 on the revised greatness scale.   :o

Another thing I have learned is that to appreciate how good is a course - I need to stop using the senior tees and move back.   The course will be much greater from the back tees!   ;)

Thank you GCA for expanding my education!    :D


ps:  I'm just a rookie here, and am going way out on a limb here.  I hope you'll be easy on me.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2016, 03:32:25 PM »
Bob,

I too have learned a few things...you use far too many emoticons!!  ;) :D ;D >:( 8) ::)

Sincerely yours,

-- John Kavanaugh

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2016, 03:36:26 PM »
 :) :D ;D  ;)
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2016, 07:43:52 PM »
Of course, if we expand the answer beyond the presumed question of golf architecture (which the OP specifically does not......) we can all think of one obvious answer......and then start debating the value of length and width, too!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2016, 08:30:48 PM »
After reading this thread I am beginning to feel I wasted my money going to Scotland ...

ps:  I'm just a rookie here, and am going way out on a limb here.  I hope you'll be easy on me.

[/size][size=78%]Welcome, Bob. I'd love to hear why you enjoyed TOC and Berwick. What made them fun as opposed to hard?[/size]
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2016, 08:38:22 AM »
Aha! I think Jim has hit on something quite important. But I also think it is a mistaken view, and here is why.


The course is in no sense one's 'opponent' in a game of golf. The course is a _venue_ which allows a game of golf to be contested between two or more players, at matchplay, strokeplay, Stableford, skins or whatever scoring method one chooses.


The view of the course as our opponent is also the source of the obsession with par, and, in particular, golfers' affection for 'half par' holes where the real par (3.5 or 4.5) is below the actual par (4 or 5), and distaste for those holes where true par is higher than actual par (4.5 against 4 or 3.5 against 3). Why? Because on those holes we are most likely to feel that we got one over against the course -- which we view as our opponent.


Course as opponent thinking is also responsible for most of the quibbles about 'fairness'. All courses are inherently fair, because they are the same for all golfers (with a sidebar noting that in a large competition changing weather conditions _may_ impact on this). But, when we view the course as our opponent, then unfairness abounds!


I see an article in this (goes away to think some more). Cheers Jim!




Adam,


I look forward to the article...in the meantime, maybe we can explore the concept a bit more in here.


While I don't disagree with you that "the course as opponent" frame of mind likely drives a focus on fairness, and par etc...but it's simply undeniable that the course is the opponent. Psychologists can tackle the players individual concerns over those ancillary items on their office time.


Whether it's a particular shot, a hole or a full round; that body that presents the friction in golf is the course itself. Weather and conditioning all provide variables to the challenge, but even those features are simply additive, or supplementary, to the course itself.


Keep in mind, I'm not advocating for more difficult courses. Golf is the only game I can think of that can potentially be better enjoyed when an opponent lays down than when they're at full strength.


The person we may play a match against, or the people entered in a medal competition are certainly ingredients. In match play the other guy can impact your decision making. Likewise, in a medal play event, assumptions about the field can dictate different decisions...but it's the player's interaction with the course itself that determines success or failure.


Best regards

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2016, 09:10:06 AM »
I'm with Jim. The SAT exam (For non-USA types, that is the exam high school seniors take for college admission. It may now have a different name.) only matters relative to how other students do on it. They are my ultimate competition.

But my immediate, proximate opponent is the exam itself. I have no idea how others will do. My only choice is to get as many answers right as I can. The only competition I control is scoring as well as possible on the exam.

Same with golf courses. I don't see how they can ever be anything but your opponent. They are the only immediate opponent you have in golf for so long as you are barred from messing with your opponents' ball or their person.

The ontology of a golf course (in what sense does it exist for the golfer?) is a fascinating concept.

Bob   
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:17:34 AM by BCrosby »

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2016, 09:12:24 AM »
I'm glad hard does not equal good on the Golfweek panel!
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2016, 09:26:31 AM »
You can go through all the psycho mumbo jumbo you want....but a course is not a competitor.  For those that think it is, look up the definition of opponent.  The meaning of language shouldn't be altered to fit a theory or belief. For the theory to work, you need to find the language which works.  So define whatever it is you think golfers are doing on a course, but don't tell me courses exist to compete against golfers or that golfers exist to compete against courses.  Last I checked, when a there is a winner in golf, the course doesn't finish second.


Ciao
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:30:59 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2016, 09:40:43 AM »
Hard equals good because strategic equals good.

That's not saying all hard courses are strategic or good.  But for the most part, strategic courses are difficult because the require precise planning and execution of your game plan.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 09:48:37 AM »
    I have had this discussion with friends many times.  As a 7 handicap who still hits the ball pretty far, I would prefer to shoot 81 from the blue tees (6600 yards) than 78 from the white tees (6200 yards).  I get a better feeling of accomplishment.  I would say that the vast majority of those with whom I play disagree.  Now, I get no enjoyment shooting 85 on a 7000 course.  Not sure this makes sense, but that's me.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:55:39 AM by Jim_Coleman »

BCowan

Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 11:25:40 AM »
Jim and Bob,

  I agree completely. I enjoy playing against the course.  Golf is inner. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2016, 11:46:25 AM »
So if hard equals good it makes logical sense that harder equals better, no?  Or is it simply the proper challenge for your game?  In which case, once again it's the small minority, i.e. < 10 hdcps that set the zeitgeist for the vast majority, i.e. > 10 hdcps, not to mention the silent majority, women.   :-\   
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2016, 12:37:38 PM »
Far from convinced that hard equals good in golf. Hard is frequently related to distance but distance doesn't necessarily mean good, indeed distance can often be distinctly boring, which is very 'un-good'.
Atb

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does hard equal good?
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2016, 01:21:51 PM »
Wasn't the motivation for Pine Valley and Merion to create harder and more challenging courses in order to create better golfers in the Philly region. I don't have the quote but I remember reading that they were concerned that the region's players were falling behind Boston and New York because of a courses that did not present enough difficulty. The result of that push did not turn out too bad. I agree that hard for the sake of hard, especially in terms of conditioning, is not enjoyable. But hard in and of itself is no crime if done well. And it does force you to become a better player both mentally and physically.

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