[Joe Hancock]

Besides the blinding whiteness.....

I heard them say ALL the bunkers were raked with the pattern pointing towards the hole.

As if the normal perfect presentation wasn't easy enough for the pro's.

Will we ever get back to bunkers being a hazard? These types of bunker presentations become the norm at the upper-crust local clubs, with trickle down effects to all levels.

[Kalen Braley]

Besides the blinding whiteness.....

I heard them say ALL the bunkers were raked with the pattern pointing towards the hole.

As if the normal perfect presentation wasn't easy enough for the pro's.

Will we ever get back to bunkers being a hazard? These types of bunker presentations become the norm at the upper-crust local clubs, with trickle down effects to all levels.

Even funnier Joe was Jacobson calling the bunker on I think 13 or 14 a "coffin" bunker.

Then hilarity ensued as Johnny, David, and Pete didn't have a fooking clue about where all the famous bunkers were in  GB....  hack central...

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe -

no, I don't think we will ever get back to a bunker being a hazard.

Do you remember the scene in The Godfather, when Tom Hagen is having dinner with Hollywood studio-head Jack Woltz, and he's telling him why Johnny Fontaine would never get the role in that war picture?

"And then Johnny Fontaine comes along with his olive oil voice and guinea charm and she runs off. She threw it all away just to make me look ridiculous. And a man in my position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous!"

Back in the 40s and 50s, only the big shot studio heads [metaphorically speaking] felt that they couldn't afford to look ridiculous; professional golfers back then weren't yet so full of themselves or earning enough money to be so pretentious or ego-centric.

By the late 1990s, that had certainly changed, and professional golfers were making millions, and so we got tour players convinced that they couldn't afford to look ridiculous either, under any circumstances but especially in bunkers/hazards.

[My theory: tour pros don't mind struggling at a US Open course that is 7600 yards long and has 20 yard-wide fairways because they know that we know we'd get killed on a course like that; but if, on the other hand, they muff a bunker shot, they know there are 22 million hacks thinking "geez, even I could've done better than that".]

And now, in 2016, after decades of unrivalled economic growth and the emergence of "the selfie", we have entire generations of golfers, from beginners to 60 year old club champions, firmly believing that they can't afford to look ridiculous either.

And they are ready to spend a fortune to make sure they don't!...

Peter       
   

[Sean_A]

I know its been said a million times, but the sand save percentage by the best bunker player in the world has been pretty steady since the PGA Tour kept stats...that is 60-70%.  Now, if we are going to talk about joe blow handicap player, I would think an awesome percentage would be 25%.  Seems to me even at this highly inflated average, bunkers do a good job of causing grief while still leaving some opportunity for excellent recovery.  That said, if archies were willing to cut bunkers down to less than 40 a course, I wouldn't mind seeing them be more difficult to recover from.  However, if archies are going to insist on 60, 80, 100 bunkers, then forget it.  Sand has more than its fair share of influence.


Ciao

[Anthony_Nysse]

Besides the blinding whiteness.....

I heard them say ALL the bunkers were raked with the pattern pointing towards the hole.

As if the normal perfect presentation wasn't easy enough for the pro's.

Will we ever get back to bunkers being a hazard? These types of bunker presentations become the norm at the upper-crust local clubs, with trickle down effects to all levels.

This is common practice especially when hand raking. Going back to when I used to volunteer at Harbourtown (2004-2007) and as an Asst at Colonial, fwy bunkers were raked in the direction of play and greenside bunkers were raked towards the center of the green. We're were even given pins sheets to be able take towards the cup.

[David_Tepper]

"Now, if we are going to talk about joe blow handicap player, I would think an awesome percentage would be 25%."

Sean -

The PGA Tour average on sand saves is around 50%. If you are talking about the typical 10-12 handicap, I doubt they get up & down out of a bunker more than once out of 8 or 10 times.  Those sand saves are more likely a result of holing at 10'-15' putt rather than hitting a great bunker shot.

For the overwhelming majority of golfers, bunkers are a true hazard no matter how well they are prepared.

DT

[Joe Hancock]

I had a pleasant call today from an old friend who was, apparently, bored while sitting in his Philly area barn- office.....

The discussion helped me refine my thoughts on why this topic of bunker maintenance bothers me so; The current trends in bunker maintenance make it easier for the low handicapper/ accomplished sand player to achieve success from the sand while doing nothing for the high handicapper/ sand- challenged golfer.

And, it also illuminated the misleading title in that I am not referring to waste bunkers, but to the formal, no-grounding type bunkers.

[Mike_Young]

Joe,
I'm not sure of all the proper terms etc but once told there were no waste bunkers in golf just waste areas.  After Whistling Straits it seemed very hard to differentiate.  It would be nice if bunkers became hazards again.  Hope all is well.
Mke

[Jon Wiggett]

I have always advocated the stopping of regular raking of bunkers as it used to be until the late 80s in the UK. Let the player smooth their footprints and splash marks with the foot or a club as best they can. Only rake once or twice a month for weed control.

Regular raking only helps the best players and does nothing for the average player. Not raking would not only make the hazard a more interesting challenge for the lower handicappers but would help to reduce costs in these austere times.

Jon

[Sean_A]

I am not sure where the idea of raking only helping better players comes from.  So, average players aren't advantaged by playing from a smooth lie rather than from a footprint?  I am average I can say it sure helps me to play from a raked bunker.  I can buy a maintenance argument, but not a playability argument.  Besides, how does one maintain bunkers which only effects better players?  That sounds rather far fetched with the logical conclusion being there should be no bunkers because better players are better at recovering from sand 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

If sand bunkers were left unraked the inclination to have so many of them on some courses, especially inland/parkland courses, might quickly disappear and there'd soon be less of them. Perhaps this might be good for the game?
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I think there is Merit to Joe's post, via a certain someone that I too remember from days of yore.

When they used the furrowed rakes at Jacks tournament a number of years ago, the pros whined/cried/and threw a fit about that.  So much so, that they returned to traditional raking the following year.  All that whining over bunkers that were still raked...

And its not that average joes don't benefit from raked bunkers, its that the pros benefit a lot more than the average joe does.  I can still hit plenty of poor shots from a perfectly raked bunker or a messy one, but a pro will hit far more bad shots from a unmaintained one than a perfectly raked one.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

getting the ball out of the bunker is not really harder from a nestled or poor lie than from a good lie and as an average player has very little control over a bunker shot beyond getting the ball out the lie really does not have much influence on the average player.

However, from a less than optimal lie it is much harder for the lower handicapper to control the ball around the green or get any distance from a fairway bunker. It makes a massive difference to lower handicappers (2 or 3 handicap and better)

You may not buy it but I know it to be true

Jon

[archie_struthers]

 


I've worked at places where the sand wasn't raked and also when it was impeccably maintained .  Liked the random maintenance better.


This being said one of the reasons for maintenance vs non maintenance might just have to do with the players. Many times I would see a disgusted player thrash around the sand and leave a mess. The player should clean it up but the caddy is the last line of defense for the players to follow . At Pine Valley it wasn't too bad but imagine being at a club where you work for the same players a lot and some neglect the obligatory smoothing . It can make for some touchy situations .


I'm all for more randomness in design but maintenance is tough for most club. Not many members are cool with nasty bunkers as fairness and consistency are often the desired result. Here on GCA we would probably accept a little challenge and scruffiness with more appreciation. It's a real conundrum as great bunker maintenance is incredibly expensive yet seems important to so many.

[Sean_A]

To the contrary, anytime there are dodgy lies the best players are more advantaged because they hit squarely behind the ball nearly all the time.  Often times in those same situations for the average player leads to an X.  I don't see why that would be any different for bunkers.  Average players have a chance to recover when they have a decent lie, give them a crap lie and a ton will not recover.  I see it every day.  Shit, I see good players with good lies in tough bunkers not recover quite a bit simply because of the difficulty of the bunker.  Yeamans Hall is a great example of this.  Deep greenside bunkers with hard baked sand covering large areas of the green.  I have stood around for several minutes watching guys ping pong back and forth.   

Philosophically I have no issue with less bunkers, but which make recovery more difficult. However, that isn't what folks seem to be suggesting.  The real problem here is twofold; clubs are strapped for cash and people mistakingly use pros as a measuring stick. The bottom line is bunkers are still very effective hazards for 99% of golfers...so far as I am concerned that is irrefutable. If anything, I think bunkers have too much influence on the outcome of scores.  There isn't a need to make bunkers more difficult from a playability PoV.  I can understand from a maintenance perspective that unkept bunkers are better.  The solution for this is obvious. If a club has financial pressures they need to figure out which hits their bottom line more; either getting rid of bunkers or not maintaining them. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean, my 30 odd years as an instructor and playing with people of all standards would be at odds with your experience.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last comment though.

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

The disconnect is, average players can ping pong with good bunker conditions or lousy bunker conditions.  Just ask anyone who attended the Monterey KP a few years back and played with me at Pajaro Valley! 

However, good players will almost always hit great shots out of well maintained bunkers, and be a lot more variable in lousy ones.

So I agree with the original premise.  Well maintained bunkers gives the MOST benefit to the best players as it will allow them recovery nearly every time.  Additionally, its not that players like me get no benefits, its just not anywhere near as much.

P.S.  The real proof in the pudding is anytime the pros play on courses with less than ideal bunker conditions, they moan/complain/whine worse than a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum.

[Sean_A]

Kalen


Forget what the pros do.  For some inexplicable reason this board is fixated on the top 1% which has nothing to do with the rest of golfers.


Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen


Forget what the pros do.  For some inexplicable reason this board is fixated on the top 1% which has nothing to do with the rest of golfers.

Ciao

Sean,

If you re-read the original post and Title, the original question was directed at a PGA tour event.  So I think in terms of the OP, many of us are on topic.  Additionally, as many clubs are "monkey see, monkey do" when it comes to what they see on TV, I think its important to talk about the ripple effect throughout the entire industry.

That being said,  I think the same principles applies universally to al venues. We know how much the average course spends on bunker maintenance.  and it seems like a lot of places that are looking to cut costs could massively scale back, if it came to keeping its doors open or not. 

As it relates back to the 1st point, sure there are places like Augusta which will likely never scale back, but if the other venues don't follow suit, then perhaps pristine bunkers won't be seen as a must for a PGA tour stop.  Its not like the PGA tour players are going to quit the tour either.

[Jay Mickle]

Tobacco Road has only waste areas (bunkers), some of which carts are driven through. The protocol is that you may lift your ball smooth your lie and replace the ball. Seems a very fair, practical and cost effective solution.

[Joe Hancock]

Kalen


Forget what the pros do.  For some inexplicable reason this board is fixated on the top 1% which has nothing to do with the rest of golfers.


Ciao

I agree. Now, how are you going to get all the over-maintained courses to take a step back and do something different than what they see on TV? I'm not blaming supers, by the way. They do what they're asked to do, with the exception of a few who have unlimited budgets and teach everyone else what's possible.

[Sean_A]

Kalen


Forget what the pros do.  For some inexplicable reason this board is fixated on the top 1% which has nothing to do with the rest of golfers.


Ciao

I agree. Now, how are you going to get all the over-maintained courses to take a step back and do something different than what they see on TV? I'm not blaming supers, by the way. They do what they're asked to do, with the exception of a few who have unlimited budgets and teach everyone else what's possible.

Joe


Where there is money people will find ways to waste it.  The best solution for most courses is probably to cut the super budget by 10% each year over 3-4 years 


Ciao

[Mike_Young]

Tobacco Road has only waste areas (bunkers), some of which carts are driven through. The protocol is that you may lift your ball smooth your lie and replace the ball. Seems a very fair, practical and cost effective solution.

those bunkers are not considered a hazard and ball should be played as is but you can ground the club and take a practice swing etc....cheers

[Joe Hancock]

http://www.linksmagazine-digitalissues.com/linksmagazine/august_hotlinks?pg=7#pg7

A nice synopsis courtesy of Jim Urbina.

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