[Tim Gallant]

Reading about the want for a clubhouse at Barra GC, I had a browse on their website, and loved the simplicity of the square geometric greens against the rugged terrain all around. I understand they do this more for a practical reason (to get fences up to save the greens from the livestock), but I loved it all the same.


That then got me thinking about square greens in general. I have yet to play a Raynor track, but am led to believe he 'squared-off' some of his greens, which I love the look of.


My question is two-fold:


1. What are some of the best square greens in the world?
2. In my limited knowledge of GCA, I see the merit of putting an oval-ish green at a slight angle to the centre of the fairway, which thus makes one side of the fairway more optimal from which to approach. So, is it possible to achieve this with a square green? And is there any architectural merit in having a square green? Is it easier to create optical illusions?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,
 
A square green can present significant challenges to the golfer, especially when the holes are cut into the corners.
 
The bunkering can be moat like and present a significant challenge on the approach.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tim,

yes it is possible to get the angled effect from a squared green. However, as far as I am aware the origins of green shapes both square and oval is to do with maintenance not architectural. Square greens came about from the early hand mowers which were very heavy and had no motor. They were hard enough to push in a straight line let alone in a curve.

Oval greens came once motorised mowers came in and especially greens triplexes which cannot cut square corners on greens without excessive wear & tear. I still like the straight front edged green of which I have a few and also one square green.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

A square green when turned slightly clockwise or anti-clockwise becomes a diamond like shape.
Atb

[Tim Gallant]

Pat,


Interesting about the moat-like bunkering. Remember seeing a few examples, but can't think of any off the top of my head. Do you have a good example?


Jon,


With advancements in equipment now, is there a reason for architects to use a squared green, if for nothing other than variety?


Thomas,


I did think of this, however, every example I have seen seems to be square to the run-up fairway. Any examples of where it is diamond shaped?

[Jon Wiggett]

Tim,

it would be more likely on a small, low budget operation or a very top end one where there is a commitment to hand mow. From the point of view of variety, then yes it would be a good thing.

Jon

[Michael Felton]

Pat,


Interesting about the moat-like bunkering. Remember seeing a few examples, but can't think of any off the top of my head. Do you have a good example?

I'm sure Pat knows better than I do, but the 4th hole at St George's on Long Island looks kind of square and has a moat like bunker around (most of) it. Google maps link is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9257733,-73.1164101,98m/data=!3m1!1e3


It is squarish with rounded edges, but looks like it may once have been fully square. Ran has a good review of the course on the main site.

[Nigel Islam]

As far as the best examples, Yeamans Hall, Camargo, and Blue Mound all have holes with squared off edges. The ninth green at Oakmont which doubles as the putting green fits the criteria.  I believe Chicago Golf has some, but I certainly lack the first hand knowledge.

[Tim Gallant]

Pat,


Interesting about the moat-like bunkering. Remember seeing a few examples, but can't think of any off the top of my head. Do you have a good example?

I'm sure Pat knows better than I do, but the 4th hole at St George's on Long Island looks kind of square and has a moat like bunker around (most of) it. Google maps link is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9257733,-73.1164101,98m/data=!3m1!1e3


It is squarish with rounded edges, but looks like it may once have been fully square. Ran has a good review of the course on the main site.

Michael,


Thank you for the example. I can see how putting a pin back-left could have consequences for those trying to be more aggressive and failing. It does look like the green has shrunk in size, and maybe once was a squared-off version.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael & Tim,

I had the 4th at St Georges in mind.

I absolutely love that green complex

[Joe Bausch]

Michael & Tim,

I had the 4th at St Georges in mind.

I absolutely love that green complex

Love that hole.  Love the course.  Here are some pics starting at the tee for the par 4 4th:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/StGeorges/pages/page_23.html

[Bret Lawrence]

Tim:


The 14th green at Wanumetonomy CC in Rhode Island features a square green that is set at a slight angle to the fairway.  The four corners of the putting surface are built up a little higher than the rest of the surface and they gently fold in towards the center of the green.  The four corners are partially rounded, so the green isn't exactly square, but close. 


If you hit one of these front corners, it can propel your ball all the way across the green for a very long putt or chip!  Missing short to a front pin location can be an equally difficult recovery.  For a green without hazards, it does a good job of protecting itself.


Here is a picture looking back at the hole from the 15th tee.



Bret

[Michael Felton]

Michael & Tim,

I had the 4th at St Georges in mind.

I absolutely love that green complex

Do you by any chance know if the green lines originally followed what looks like the ground there? It certainly looks like it used to be very square and presumably mowing lines changed with the equipment.

[Tim Gallant]

Michael & Tim,

I had the 4th at St Georges in mind.

I absolutely love that green complex

Love that hole.  Love the course.  Here are some pics starting at the tee for the par 4 4th:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/StGeorges/pages/page_23.html

Pat and Joe,


Thank you for sharing. Love the front lip before the green. Does this make the approach semi-blind? Also, I can see how that back pin location can add a real risk/reward element to the approach. That would be one hell of an up and down from that moat-like bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,
 
The bunker immediately fronting the green is blind.
 
# 4 green surrounds are unique with a double fronting bunker
 
I believe that the green was square.
 
I also believe that riding greens mowers sounded the death knell for square greens.

[Ed Brzezowski]

If I recall correctly, and I am sure the Philly guys will help, Tavistock has a few squared off greens. If I recall correctly there were quite a few fronts that were squared off.


Very interesting look.

[Tim Gallant]

If I recall correctly, and I am sure the Philly guys will help, Tavistock has a few squared off greens. If I recall correctly there were quite a few fronts that were squared off.


Very interesting look.

Ed,


Thanks for the info. I had a look just on google maps:


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Tavistock+Country+Club/@39.8741892,-75.028698,643m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x3b45f019d952a43e!6m1!1e1


It certainly looks like they have squared off the front of a few of the greens on the course. I would love to see what undulations these greens have and if this is historically accurate to the original design.


How does it look when the only the greens have a geometric look? In other words, just from a glance, there are only a handful of bunkers here that have a similar squared-ness. Does this then jar with the overall aesthetics of the course, or add balance? I see CGC (just from Google - I have never played there) being one extreme - everything geometrically shaped - and somewhere like Castle Stuart being the opposite (blown out bunkers, varying green shapes).

[David Amarnek]

Another Philly-area course with a wonderful square green is #3 at Gulph Mills Golf Club (Ross, 100 years ago this year!)

[Joe Bausch]

Tavistock does have many squared-off greens.  And they are fantastic.

The whole course is worth a look as this is one of my better presentations with lots of old aerials/pictures too:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Tavistock/

And here is a pic of the 3rd green at Gulph Mills (this photo album is also quite good, IMO):

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GulphMills/pages/page_22.html?

The par 4 3rd hole at LuLu also has an excellent nearly squared-off green (LuLu and Tavistock were both constructed by Frank James):

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GulphMills/pages/page_22.html?

[JReese]

Here is a good discussion from the archives discussing square green shapes: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,8302.0.html

[JLahrman]

As far as the best examples, Yeamans Hall, Camargo, and Blue Mound all have holes with squared off edges. The ninth green at Oakmont which doubles as the putting green fits the criteria.  I believe Chicago Golf has some, but I certainly lack the first hand knowledge.

I haven't played Camargo in quite a few years, definitely since before it got restored, but looking at it in Google Earth there are quite a few square greens. Not square-ish, but with full corners. #2, #8, #12, #13, #14, #15, and #16 in particular. If anybody has ground-level pictures I'd love to see them.

[Sean_A]

Church Stretton has a few squaare greens with the corners rounded a bit.  I spose this shape does leave four corners for tough hole location. 








Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

David and Joe,


That green does look great - the pin on that shelf back right would be menacing.


Joe,


Really appreciate you linking to the entire Tavistock course. I do love the green shapes, which appear to often have a sharp-ish cut to the corners, even if it isn't exactly a square. And what is happening with that 7th hole?! I love the idea of two greens per hole - alla PV.


James,


Thanks for the link. I had a search for that exact term, but it turned up no results? I found this comment interesting from Ran:
Certainly Tom Dunn and Old Tom Morris built more than their fair share of square greens in the 1800s. According to my hero Sir Guy Campbell, Willie Park bridged the gap from the stylized functional designs of the 19th century until golf's Golden Age. Park firmly believed greens should be of different shapes and sizes and Maidstone and Sunningdale exemplifed this new trend in architecture. Finally, by 1929, Tom Simpson was saying greens should never be formal in design and that pear-shaped in general was preferred.


JLahrman,
Camargo, Yeamans Hall and CGC have all been cited as examples of some of the best greens where the the edges seemed to be 'sqaured-off'. I wonder if it was good enough for one of the most prolific architects of all time, why more don't use the feature?


Sean,


While I can see how pin placement would create the difficulty, I wonder if elevation change / hazards around the green alla St Georges from above posts would create more interest. Nevertheless, I still love seeing the geometric shape against the natural surrounds.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Really appreciate you linking to the entire Tavistock course. I do love the green shapes, which appear to often have a sharp-ish cut to the corners, even if it isn't exactly a square. And what is happening with that 7th hole?! I love the idea of two greens per hole - alla PV.

And I think Tavistock has gotten even better over the winter.  Grin. 

I hope to have updated pics later this coming golf season.

[Cliff Hamm]

In an apparent tribute to Raynor, the par 5 8th at Newport National in Rhode Island has a square green. Designed by Arthur Hills, but really Drew Rogers.

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