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JReese

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »

James,


Thanks for the link. I had a search for that exact term, but it turned up no results? I found this comment interesting from Ran:
Certainly Tom Dunn and Old Tom Morris built more than their fair share of square greens in the 1800s. According to my hero Sir Guy Campbell, Willie Park bridged the gap from the stylized functional designs of the 19th century until golf's Golden Age. Park firmly believed greens should be of different shapes and sizes and Maidstone and Sunningdale exemplifed this new trend in architecture. Finally, by 1929, Tom Simpson was saying greens should never be formal in design and that pear-shaped in general was preferred.



Tim - I often have better luck using google to search this site than I do using the search function in the discussion group. 


I also found the above statement interesting, and wonder if anyone knows when and where the first square green originated?  According to George Bahto Chicago Golf was the first club in the USA to mow greens at a 90 degree angle.  Were these greens the first of their kind or were there examples Macdonald/Raynor drew their inspiration from? 


Referring to you original question - not sure if these could be considered the best in the world but Butterfield CC in Oak Brook, IL has almost 1/3 of their greens with at least one 90 degree angle.  According to their website the greens were completely rebuilt in 2009 by Steve Smyers.  They look like an absolute blast to putt on as long as you don't mind the occasional 3 or 4 putt.



"Bunkers are not places of pleasure; they are for punishment and repentance." - Old Tom Morris

Sean_A

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 02:15:36 AM »

Sean,


While I can see how pin placement would create the difficulty, I wonder if elevation change / hazards around the green alla St Georges from above posts would create more interest. Nevertheless, I still love seeing the geometric shape against the natural surrounds.


Tim


It sounds a bit loopy because we really associate square greens with private clubs (at least I do), but for a fairly basic course, square greens can add a lot of interest for a small price.  I can see this being the case especially on hilly sites. But sure, I agree with you that using all types of "hazards" will be more interesting in the long term.   


Ciao

New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Brett Wiesley

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 03:37:06 PM »
I have found many of C&C courses to have squared edges, or rectangle greens - really only noticed from google earth.  Many draw out as rectangles, and then on the course have so much wave in them, with fall off on each side that you can't believe looked like it did from the aerial.  Same with Doak at Old Mac.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 04:10:04 PM »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 05:49:46 PM »
Nice photo Ian. I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I've seen yee olde photos of square cornered greens at Sunningdale.
Atb

Tim Gallant

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 07:03:37 AM »



Ian,


Thank you very much for the photo. I love the width of the course there and the contrast between the square green and the rough bunkers. Look at the bunker in the lower right part of the photo - That looks like one hell of a spot to get up and down from. I am playing there in a couple of months, and will be sure to look at the green now vs. then. No doubt it has changed.

KMcKeown

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2016, 09:27:36 AM »
I first saw squared off greens at Chicago Golf Club and was blown away. Needless to say taking pictures wasn't a priority but they were awesome too see. In fact, CGC was my first exposure to mastery of C.B.

Piping Rock also had them if my memory serves me right. I don't recall the #3 on Guelph Mills but I do recall what an outstanding course it was. I felt like it had some influence by Perry Maxwell but it was never confirmed.

Niall C

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2016, 10:18:55 AM »
Speaking from a UK perspective, I suspect square greens are largely a hangover from the old days from the first golfing boom. Not sure why greens were square (either built square, or cut square where they just went with the lay of the land) but you can still see them on some old designs that have had minimum upgrading through the years, particularly with greens built into the side of hills. One good example is Spey Bay on the Moray coast. You can also see them in early photos in the contemporary golf mags, like the example of Prestwick that Ian posted.


For a period they were also built level (1890’s early 1900’s) before critical press comment against “bowling green” like flat greens lead to greens being built with undulations although often retaining the square shape. MacKenzie, Colt and others later picked up on this reaction to flat greens in their own designs, taking it one step further with extremely undulating greens like at Sitwell Park, before again critical comment lead them to toning down their own green designs.


I suspect it was at that point that greens started to become more irregularly shaped. But going back to why greens were square in the first place, and I suspect it was to do with the introduction of mowing machines in the 1830’s (?). When you think of other games like cricket and bowls and the rectangular nature of the wicket and bowling green, and of how golf greens were cut, you do wonder if it was purely a product of cutting grass in lines as opposed to a sweeping motion with a scythe.


Related to that, I also wonder how many of the very early constructors and greenkeepers of the first boom had worked on bowling greens and what influence that had. Anyway it’s easy to see how square greens ended up in US with the influx of Scots and English professional/greenkeepers in the early days.


 
Niall

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Square Greens
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2016, 03:13:12 PM »
Niall,

as I mentioned in an earlier post greens were cut square as the original push hand mowers were hard enough to push in a straight line let alone round a curve. It was not uncommon for there to be a greenskeeper pushing and a boy in front pulling on a rope to help. It became easier to mow in a curve when the first motorised mowers came on the market which would have been in the 30s I think.

Jon

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