[Mike_Young]

As 13000 of our 16000 golf courses search for ways to cut cost and not affect play it seems tees are one of the easiest areas to reduce and not affect the playability at all.  While the last 30 years have seen the bunker require as much care and as large a percentage of budget as greens, the tee is rarely mentioned.  Yet, we see tees designed much larger than needed, HOC at under .25 inches and walk mowing completely flat tees.  So, does anyone see a problem with spending less time on tee maintenance? Is there a problem with just mowing tees along with fairways etc?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


When I started I didn't put a lot of thought into tees, and I was told constantly by people in the golf business that I was making a mistake -- that next to greens, the condition of tees was most valued by golfers, in spite of the fact they hit off a peg. 


To the extent it's true, it's clearly a cosmetic thing ... but American golfers demand cosmetics if they're paying more than $40 to play.

[Mike_Young]

TD,
That's my argument.  It's 95% cosmetics.  And yes, $40-$50 bucks is the cut-off but there are a lot of courses that fall there.  And IMHO for so many of those places a tee mowed a fairway height and if possible blended completely into fairway should be all that is needed and can be made to be a design element. 

[jeffwarne]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the ONLY place you're entitled to a tee peg for a perfect lie,
is expected to be a perfect lie anyway.

[paul cowley]

You are being way to practical my friend, but you haven't factored in the snob element that requires/demands special maintenance attention to as many areas as possible to be satisfied.


A practical question...what is the best playing height for tee surfaces that is consistent with the shot demands of the game? Fairway height of course because 'woods' can always be teed up so the cut height doesn't matter...and the cut height for irons should be consistent with approach shot conditions found when not on the tee. Why would a player want anything lower?


I remember a well known and very expensive/exclusive Resort once experimented with cutting the tee surfaces on one of their 18's at green height...and one of the reasons given was that a player could practice putting while waiting on the tee. I think the real reason is the same one used by those who choose to have all white carpets and furniture in their living areas...status.


I think the experiment lasted a season.

[Tom_Doak]

TD,
That's my argument.  It's 95% cosmetics.  And yes, $40-$50 bucks is the cut-off but there are a lot of courses that fall there.  And IMHO for so many of those places a tee mowed a fairway height and if possible blended completely into fairway should be all that is needed and can be made to be a design element.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys in the $40 budget golf market gravitate toward the courses which spend their limited $ manicuring the tees.  As Paul says -- snobs exist throughout the price range spectrum.

[Mike_Young]

PC,
I did a course in Mississippi where they had the ultradwarf on the first and tenth for putting....

IMHO height of cut factor across the board has done more than any other factor to raise the overall cost of golf. 

[Daryl David]

I don't want to derail the discussion, but have wondered the same thing about the condition of the hitting surface on ranges. I was at a private club the other day and the range hitting area was maintained exactly like the course tees. Mowed tighter than the fairway, pretty close to green height. Very difficult for higher handicap players to strike the ball properly.  Many of the higher end clubs I visit have ranges maintained this way. I assume this to be very expensive and doesn't seem to accomplish anything except aesthetics.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - a question and observation from an average golfer who plays mostly modest courses.

In general, are tee boxes/pads raised above grade mostly for drainage reasons?

I ask because I find that, in my limited experience, tees mowed at fairway height look good when the tee box itself it at grade, i.e. level with the fairway.

In other words, they go hand in hand, i.e. if we want to cut tees at fairway height, then we should ideally have the tee boxes themselves at fairway height/grade.   

Somehow, aesthetically speaking, once an architect has built up the tee pad/box by a foot or two, he has already seemed to signal/indicate that the teeing grounds are different and special -- and so inadvertently encourages those who are predisposed to want something special to then expect something special.     

I'm not sure I explained myself well; this was poorly written

[Anthony_Nysse]

At one time, we had tifeagle tees at Pine Tree....and Tifeagle approaches. Berkeley Hall still has it on their tees, Sage Valley, also. Medalist has mini verde on their tee tops.

[Mike_Young]

Mike - a question and observation from an average golfer who plays mostly modest courses.

In general, are tee boxes/pads raised above grade mostly for drainage reasons?

I ask because I find that, in my limited experience, tees mowed at fairway height look good when the tee box itself it at grade, i.e. level with the fairway.

In other words, they go hand in hand, i.e. if we want to cut tees at fairway height, then we should ideally have the tee boxes themselves at fairway height/grade.   

Somehow, aesthetically speaking, once an architect has built up the tee pad/box by a foot or two, he has already seemed to signal/indicate that the teeing grounds are different and special -- and so inadvertently encourages those who are predisposed to want something special to then expect something special.     

I'm not sure I explained myself well; this was poorly written

Peter,
I think if one just mows the entire cpmplex at fairway height instead of just the top of the tee, then it blends well...I don't think it has to do with whether they are elevated or not...but then I would prefer to shape long enough lines for the tee elevation not to be noticed if possible..

[Thomas Dai]

Has any decent/proper/well respected full length grass 18-hole course in the modern era ever used artificial mats on every tee on every hole on a day-by-day basis?


If not, given how the quality of artificial mats has improved over the years do folks consider it likely to happen sometime soon?


Atb

[Paul Gray]

Education, education, education. 


Essentially, TD nailed it in his first post. Snobbery, never of the intellectual kind, exists at every price point. Watch golf on TV and see how long it takes before "the course is LOOKING great this week" is uttered. Appearance and playing quality are now assumed, completely wrongly, to mean the same thing. The fact that there is no golfing benefit to perfect turf where you can stick a tee peg in the ground simply doesn't occur to 99% of golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom & Mike,


Where do foursomes of golfers, no matter how diverse their games, congregate 36 times in a round ?


The tees and the greens.


That's where the golfers congregate or become concentrated during their round.


They can be all over the body of the hole, but they tee off together and come back together to putt on every hole on the tees and greens.


As such, while waiting their turn to play, they have ample time to obverse everything in close proximity.


Ergo tees and greens are the most visible features to the golfer.


So, if your tees aren't in good shape, that poor shape will be observed and impact the golfer's impression of the golf course.  Repeated 18 times, that impression become indelible.


Ask yourself.


When you go into a restaurant, a restaurant with good food and good service, how often would you go back there if you walked into the kitchen and found it to be in poor or very poor shape ?


Even if the kitchen was in good shape, how often would you return if the rest rooms were horrific ?


So visual presentation is a critical factor in terms of appealing to the golfer.


Neglect the tees and the visual impression will come back to haunt you.

[Joe Hancock]

Devries has done a course with tees mowed the same height as everything else except greens. It works and presents very well. Doak's course, The Loop, will not have formally mowed tees either. I bet none of you guys will refuse a round there, or even mark down your rating scores for it.

Tees need to function well as a starting point of a hole. Reasonably level, a large enough area to accommodate the amount of wear it will receive, and groomed to a level of expectation according to the wishes of the clientele, as whacky as that may be.

If the tee areas have been gaudily shaped they may as well be pimped out in their maintenance. If the shaping is undiscernible  from the surrounding natural landforms then I'm all for less formalized maintenance levels.

[BCowan]

As 13000 of our 16000 golf courses search for ways to cut cost and not affect play it seems tees are one of the easiest areas to reduce and not affect the playability at all.  While the last 30 years have seen the bunker require as much care and as large a percentage of budget as greens, the tee is rarely mentioned.  Yet, we see tees designed much larger than needed, HOC at under .25 inches and walk mowing completely flat tees.  So, does anyone see a problem with spending less time on tee maintenance? Is there a problem with just mowing tees along with fairways etc?

Mike,

   I think Fairway cut length is fine.  I am much more interested on tee firmness then HOC.  Diamond Springs in Grand Rapids area cuts tees and fairways all at same height.  In the South which I am less familiar then you I love Dormant grass tees.  Par 3 tees could be given a little more care as a compromise.  I prefer Dormant tee boxes to shaggy over-seeded rye for Par 4's and 5's.   

[Jon Wiggett]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the ONLY place you're entitled to a tee peg for a perfect lie,
is expected to be a perfect lie anyway.

Jeff, no you are not the only one to think that.

I find Mike has it spot on about the height of cut making the game more expensive. Not only that but it also makes the courses easier for lower handicappers by giving tighter lies to play off and allowing the ball to roll much further. At the same time it hurts the average player who is better playing from lusher lies. But as the whole industry and pro tours push the low cut manicured approach for commercial reasons people will believe the adverts rather than what their own common sense would tell them if only they stopped to think.

Tees at fairway height and at grade would be the cheapest way to build.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

Tom & Mike,


Where do foursomes of golfers, no matter how diverse their games, congregate 36 times in a round ?


The tees and the greens.


That's where the golfers congregate or become concentrated during their round.


They can be all over the body of the hole, but they tee off together and come back together to putt on every hole on the tees and greens.


As such, while waiting their turn to play, they have ample time to obverse everything in close proximity.


Ergo tees and greens are the most visible features to the golfer.


So, if your tees aren't in good shape, that poor shape will be observed and impact the golfer's impression of the golf course.  Repeated 18 times, that impression become indelible.


Ask yourself.


When you go into a restaurant, a restaurant with good food and good service, how often would you go back there if you walked into the kitchen and found it to be in poor or very poor shape ?


Even if the kitchen was in good shape, how often would you return if the rest rooms were horrific ?


So visual presentation is a critical factor in terms of appealing to the golfer.


Neglect the tees and the visual impression will come back to haunt you.

Patrick,
I'm not saying to neglect tees.  I have been mowing tees at fairway height on several places for years and I have the fairway mower mow the surrounds and top of tee the same...it works well.   Spray a little Primo if you ish and it all fine...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I don't have any issues with mowing tees at fairway height.

You see them at Sebonack and I believe Applebrook.

If they're well maintained I can't see why anyone would object to them.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,

I don't have any issues with mowing tees at fairway height.

You see them at Sebonack and I believe Applebrook.

If they're well maintained I can't see why anyone would object to them.

Applebrook has 4-5 holes where the approach ties into a teeing ground for the next hole, but not all. Seems to be a trend-when re renovated Colonial in 2008, we added 4-5 tie ins like this

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Do you have any statistics on either number of courses or extra money per course that back up your contention that tees cost too much to maintain? 

I think its pretty well understood that higher cuts mean less stress.  There are probably many who use collar cut for that and nearby tees perhaps, which is probably shorter than fairway height, but higher than greens, but keeping the mower set at one height has some efficiency.  Does the chemicals, irrigation, etc. change that much from 3/8 to 1/4 cut? 

Not sure how many courses I can think of where tees are cut substantially lower than fw height, at least in the medium level course you speak of.   If its only at the top 10% of the courses, presumably they know what it costs and whether they can afford it.

[Andrew Carr]

I'm curious of the answer to Peter's question as well:


"In general, are tee boxes/pads raised above grade mostly for drainage reasons?"[/size]


Is there a drainage element to the teeing ground being higher than the fairway on most places I've seen.Separately, my historical understanding of sand "tees" is that they were used so as to not destroy the green, since a player was suppose to tee off within a few paces of the previous hole.  (I don't know the exact distance that the rules stipulated, but I believe it was practically on the green.)  Provided that any of the words I just typed are historically accurate, why do we even have tees anymore?[/size]

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hard to say what went through the minds of literally thousands of green committees and hundreds of designers, but my understanding has always been the elevated tee was part:

Drainage
Vision Down Fairway and Over Forward Tees, Once those were added

They may have felt it gave it a sense of importance, too.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm curious of the answer to Peter's question as well:


"In general, are tee boxes/pads raised above grade mostly for drainage reasons?"[/size]


Is there a drainage element to the teeing ground being higher than the fairway on most places I've seen.Separately, my historical understanding of sand "tees" is that they were used so as to not destroy the green, since a player was suppose to tee off within a few paces of the previous hole.  (I don't know the exact distance that the rules stipulated, but I believe it was practically on the green.)  Provided that any of the words I just typed are historically accurate, why do we even have tees anymore?[/size]

Andrew,

originally it was within a club length of the hole and you are correct, the sand tee was to help protect the green. It was said that the sand used to be taken out of the hole to create the tee. As the game became more popular it was necessary for a separate teeing ground. I suspect the raising of the tees and flattening was a result of making the teeing area more defined as markers were a later edition.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Do you have any statistics on either number of courses or extra money per course that back up your contention that tees cost too much to maintain? 

I think its pretty well understood that higher cuts mean less stress.  There are probably many who use collar cut for that and nearby tees perhaps, which is probably shorter than fairway height, but higher than greens, but keeping the mower set at one height has some efficiency.  Does the chemicals, irrigation, etc. change that much from 3/8 to 1/4 cut? 

Not sure how many courses I can think of where tees are cut substantially lower than fw height, at least in the medium level course you speak of.   If its only at the top 10% of the courses, presumably they know what it costs and whether they can afford it.

Jeff,
No.  I don't really have any statistics but I was just listening to a supt tell me how he would mow lower and Primo tees etc and I just could not see the logic except for aesthetics which could have been enhanced just as easily in other ways....

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