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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 12:30:01 PM »
Anyway, does this mean you're doing a reno here, Rob?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 12:36:06 PM »
No, not on my desk as it goes.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 01:05:51 PM »
Jeff


Maybe the way to think about it is rather than being a double penalty, it's just a different kind of challenge. After all a lot of us on here (me included) tend to harp on about variety so why not ?


Niall


Well, the entire double penalty argument stems from;

1. The definition of challenge.  At the basic level, a challenge implies that some sort of shot can actually get the job done.  Sometimes, a tree in front of a bunker makes it impossible, which then ceases to be a fun challenge and turns into a backwards play and lost shot.

2. Whether or not you agree with the idea that every shot "through the green" has the "right" to be played forward towards or to the green? 

Oddly, most understand and accept playing backwards or sideways because of trees.....the might grudgingly accept a punch shot from under that tree, even if not comfortable playing it.

They usually grudgingly accept playing backwards or sideways because of or a deep or steep bunker face......

But, for some reason, if go nutso if they have to play sideways/backwards for bunker/tree combo............

Basically, through the green, most feel like nothing (like the combo horizontal and vertical elements here) don't absolutely prevent an attempt to reach the green.  In the biggest picture, is it more fun to try to reach the green from a hazard or to chip out backwards?  If attempting to reach the green is more fun, then maybe that's the way it ought to be designed, no?
[/size]
[/size]As TD mentions on another thread, we aren't really using hazards to punish shots, we should be using them to encourage creating fun ones.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sam Krume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 01:11:06 PM »
No problem with it at all. Reminds me of the 6th at mid Herts but that bunker/tree combo is green side and it's wonderful.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 01:12:27 PM »
Fill the bunker in as it is not needed.

Jon

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 02:10:55 PM »
We have the same basic thing at my course. I dislike it there and here. Seems like a double whammy to me. A long bunker shot that has to contend with a tree?  Chainsaw time.

Hit an explosion shot to the left or right and allow the rest of your mediocre to poor golf expose your weaknesses free from the hazard.

Yikes, since when did an opinion indicate a handicap or skill level?

The only reason to contend with the tree is if you feel you've the ability to make the shot.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2016, 02:19:12 PM »
We have the same basic thing at my course. I dislike it there and here. Seems like a double whammy to me. A long bunker shot that has to contend with a tree?  Chainsaw time.

Hit an explosion shot to the left or right and allow the rest of your mediocre to poor golf expose your weaknesses free from the hazard.

Yikes, since when did an opinion indicate a handicap or skill level?

The only reason to contend with the tree is if you feel you've the ability to make the shot.

"A long bunker shot that contends with a tree? Chainsaw time."

Both of which are, it would seem, in plain view. If one can't avoid that obvious hazard then that is indeed an indictment of skill level - either physical because of a missed shot, or tactical because of a poor choice.

I don't buy the idea that this is too much of a penalty similar to the case that I don't buy the idea that a hazard could offer too little of a penalty. The skill is in solving the problem, either from the bunker or before playing the approach near the bunker. Either way, the more skillful player will solve it, and the less skillful player will not. In this case, you seem to propose solving the problem with a chainsaw in lieu of skilled golf.

And therein lay the crux of the question, in my opinion. For some, the tree negates some near-miraculous recovery. I would suspect that those same are the ones that are a little too reliant on luck for their score and a lot less reliant on skill. The skillful player will see this hazard and plan accordingly.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2016, 02:22:37 PM »
Kyle,

I doubt that anyone reliant on luck for score(never heard of any such golfer, really) really cares too much about score. They're just happy when they get lucky, no different than the rest of us.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2016, 02:32:25 PM »
Kyle,

I doubt that anyone reliant on luck for score(never heard of any such golfer, really) really cares too much about score. They're just happy when they get lucky, no different than the rest of us.

Joe,

On the contrary, I think this is almost commonplace. How many golfers truly address and practice and attempt to improve their weaknesses as players to overcome obstacles on a golf course? Is not the demand for a certain maintenance meld in regard to hazard proportionality and playability one of the most effective ways to game the outcome to produce outcomes within a limited set, thereby making skill less of a determining factor and luck/statistics moreso? Consider that many advocating the tree removal do so because it limits the chance of making a recovery that for most players is already difficult. For many, the tree dictates a shot that puts them in as equally a helpless position as they were before entering the bunker.

I am not sure there is a third possible cause of being in the bunker after:
1. Missing a shot (lack of physical skill)
2. Making a tactical error (lack of mental skill)

Therefore, attempting to mitigate the damage from that lack of skill (by removing the tree), without working on improving the skill to prevent the damage in the future, is based in depending on luck, in lieu of improvement of skill, for score.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2016, 02:38:27 PM »
Does anyone have an overhead of this hole? Seems to me that the discussion would be better focused if we knew the lines of play and did not assume them??

I still don't like trees around bunkers regardless.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2016, 02:48:58 PM »
Does anyone have an overhead of this hole? Seems to me that the discussion would be better focused if we knew the lines of play and did not assume them??

I still don't like trees around bunkers regardless.

And that's fine.

I'm not sure the layout of the hole particularly matters unless the feature is completely blind, meaning:

1. One cannot see the hazard from the previous shot
2. One does not get a preview of the hole or hazard from hole previously played.

To the latter point, if something as obvious as a tree by a bunker in that configuration is not arousing your attention walking around the golf course, I do not consider you a skilled golfer.

To the former point, if the hazard is indeed somehow blind from the previous shot, I think the entire hole could potentially be scrutinized as this obviously massive topographical feature was utilized for treachery in lieu of interest!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2016, 03:08:41 PM »
Kyle,

I'm not sure missing in that bunker is an indictment on Skill level.

Last I checked, even the top level pros regularly hit into bunkers, Go OB, and find the drink.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 03:11:15 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2016, 03:10:27 PM »
I see this kind of thing often especially on older courses that I am working on.  To me this goes back to “design intent” which some of us debated about on an earlier “restoration” thread.  If I were working on this golf course, I would want to understand the origins of both hazards.  If the original architect had planned for both hazards, I would likely leave both there.  If the tree was there and not the bunker, I would remove the bunker.  If only the bunker was there, I would remove the tree. 


As a rule, I can sometimes tolerate “double hazards” but it depends on what kind of double hazard they are.  With the one pictured, I personally don't really care for it.  That bunker shot is tough enough let alone having to possibly deal with a ricochet back off that tree in your face :(   Get it out of there!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 05:38:40 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2016, 03:11:11 PM »
Kyle,

I'm not sure missing in that bunker is an indictment on Skill level.

Last I checked, even the top level pros regularly hit it bunkers, Go OB, and find the drink.

Yes, and most still manage to break 70 from time to time. I suspect most finding this bunker would still manage to do so. However, I suspect that most that would find this bunker would take 2-3 shots to get down the majority of the time, with 4 shots being a major outlier.

I also suspect that those that avoid the bunker stand a better chance of scoring lower than those that do, which is why I use things like "more skillful v. less skillful" in analysis. It cannot be argued, in my view, that those finding that bunker have suffered a lapse in skill regardless of the level at which that skill is applied. The guy shooting 70 and ending up in this bunker still wasted a 68 or 69 in doing so.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 03:21:45 PM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2016, 04:38:44 PM »
Here is a slightly fuzzy Google Earth aerial of the hole. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to where it is?



Does anyone have an overhead of this hole? Seems to me that the discussion would be better focused if we knew the lines of play and did not assume them??

I still don't like trees around bunkers regardless.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2016, 04:47:08 PM »
As an old man who can no longer reach par 5's in two I love the tree. The entertainment value of seeing a long hitter hit the tree when going for the green and end up in the bunker would only be surpassed if he hit the tree again.


John, when did you see me play? LOL!

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2016, 05:24:10 PM »
You guys are way over thinking the problem. Cut the damn tree down, and forget it.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2016, 05:27:52 PM »
It's Tat Beach in Turkey
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2016, 06:11:57 PM »
I dont mind the bunker or tree, considering if you you lay back you can hit SW over tree. Creates more risk for trying to get to green in two or near it.To me so many par fives have a mundane second shot, this at least creates plenty of thought and discussion.

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2016, 03:38:01 AM »
Its called Titanic Golf Club now and unfortunately as the government own all the land in Belek you are not able to cut down trees.


Its a shame they built a road between the green and river as it would have been nice to make more use of the riverside location.


Whats funny is when the golf course was owned by TAT there was a full scale brawl when the new Titanic Hotel decided to build the road to the beach through the then TAT golf course. I can't find the youtube video but it involved managers and owners of Titanic beating up workers from TAT with bits of wood!
Now Titanic own the course and are looking to renovate

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2016, 04:43:50 AM »
Its difficult know what to think if I haven't played the hole.  Though I would ask, what does the bunker add to the design? 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2016, 06:44:49 AM »
That tree is ugly!  Got to go. 

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Thread: Tree Between Bunker and Target - What do you think?
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2016, 08:42:06 AM »
Gents.

Please look at the following photo and please tell me your opinion of this bunker/tree positional relationship.

No agenda. Would just like to know what folks think.




Robin,


Thanks for posting this.  Good lively discussion so far.  I don't like the tree at all.  It appears if you took the bunker and tree out, there would be a good 40-45 yards of width (which is good)...but with the bunker (it appears to be 8-10 paces wide), the width on each side looks to be no more than 12-13 paces on the right, maybe 20 on the left?  At 525, the tree and/or bunker being a hazard for the sub 5 handicap is more likely a nice decoration to fly over.  The scenario John spoke of would be funny, but would be rarity...which now leaves us with the bulk of people  that actually pay the freight - the bogey golfer.  This man probably has lots of trouble hitting 3 wood off the deck.  He probably hits it less than 230 off the tee, so he will likely run one into the bunker or be short and have to play around the tree.  Strategy?  Interest?  I guess, but it looks like a beacon of slow play.  Watching the good golfer ricochet one is entertainment, watching the bogey man hit the tree than fall into the bunker, then hit a bunker shot which ricochets (again) off the tree is needless. 


If the laws of this bastion of environmentalism won't allow you to remove an amazing tree like this one, it would be nice to (at least) pick up some width on the right side so the guy with a 15-22 yard slice could play and not take 30 minutes to finish. 


I like the rusty nail option...   
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo