Feature Interview with Jaeger Kovich is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

Predicting future trends in any field is difficult and that is especially true for our beloved sport. In the cozy world of golf where the media is reliant on industry advertising dollars, no one definitively foresaw the shrinkage in participation and a subsequent collapse of new course construction. Can we on GolfClubAtlas.com - not beholden to anyone - do a better job of calling the future? We should at least try. For example, a continuing decline of mega-design firms and a rise of artisan boutique operations seems a certainty. By artisan, I mean that the architect hired by the club will frequently be the individual found on the course doing the in-field work. Clubs will be better served by this hands-on attention to detail while enjoying a lower cost.

Who are the candidates for these roles? Logic says it will be those who cut their teeth building some of the world's best courses. A crucial function of GolfClubAtlas is to give these people a voice.

To that end, we welcome Jaeger Kovich as this month's Feature Interviewee. A regular GCA poster, the 29 year old has worked for luminaries like Doak and Hanse and traveled the world seeing and working on great courses. I last saw him in November at the fully-restored Ridgewood, which I now consider in the top three in New Jersey with Somerset Hills and Pine Valley. Today, he’s toiling on another Hanse project at Streamsong. The years just prior, he was in China and on Martha’s Vineyard and before that, he worked at Dismal River Red with Doak and turf genius Don Mahaffey.

For a self-professed minimalist, working in the Sand Hills region of Nebraska proved to be an educational experience of the highest order. Hopefully the fates will allow him to utilize this hard-earned knowledge for his own projects. His first solo effort is at The Village Club of Sands Point and the two photos found within his Feature Interview speak well to what is occurring there.

A particular favorite question and answer this month is the subject of fairway contouring. All the modern courses that I admire disproportionately high (Cabot Links, Castle Stuart, Rock Creek, Wolf Point) share one feature: superb fairway movement. To me, if the fairway contours are good, the entire design will shine.  Jaeger lights up on this subject and it is clearly near and dear to his (shaper's) heart.

We have done a couple of Feature Interviews with shapers who were blossoming into architects (George Waters, Kyle Franz) and more are planned because they will be ‘shaping’ the future … courses and trends.

Best,

[Tom_Doak]

Either I've been spelling his name wrong for five years, or you need to double-check it.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Either I've been spelling his name wrong for five years, or you need to double-check it.

 

[BCowan]

Thank God I didn't miss spell Jaeger's name 

See Ran, you are a visionary. 

[Bill_McBride]

Look forward to this interview.


When I think "artisan designer/shaper," I immediately think of Rod Whitman.  His completed work I've seen (Sagebrush and Cabot Links) is superb, two courses that immediately jumped to top 10 in Canada.  And I loved seeing him on a D6 shaping on Cabot Cliffs.  That defines "artisan."    Glad to hear Jaeger is cut from the same cloth.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Ran and Jaeger. A good interview and a pleasure to read about someone building a career the right way.  Jaeger, a couple of questions:

1. You have old-school tastes, but in your capacity as a shaper you use (for the most part) new-world technology. Did you/do you find yourself consciously having to "compensate" for the fact that a D6 isn't a rake or shovel (and not even a Bobcat) in order to achieve the look and feel and playability that you're after? Do you need to make yourself rein-in/restrain what the technology can do in order for it to do what you want it to?

2. As you move into consulting and design work, do you think you bring a "shaper's" mentality to the fore?  (By way of analogy: I think a playwright who is given a chance to make a movie will, consciously or not, focus more on the "text";  while a painter who is given the same chance might instead focus on the "visuals". Both will keep the other aspect in  mind, of course, and both will be making movies - but the 'slant' will be different.) Do you think it is the same for gca?

All continued success in the future
Peter   

PS - thanks for your generous words about Mr. Nicklaus. I only "know" him as a golfer - and admit that he's one of my heroes in that regard. But I don't think he gets nearly the credit for being a "continual learner". That is rare enough, I think, but especially so for someone who's had so much success in every area of his life. Man, if I ever win even ONE major, I'm telling you: I'd shut it down and seal it up air tight, and wouldn't be listening to/learning from ANYONE!

[Ronald Montesano]

Is Mr. Nicklaus' architectural tendency right to left or left to right? It says right to left in the interview, but it seems to me it should be the opposite.


Gracias.

[David Davis]

Ran, thanks for posting. Another great interview.


Jaeger,


Nice article. I'd like to be the first to test your memory of golf holes. No cheating! While in Munich you played St. Eurach. Tell me about the 6th and 14th holes without looking them up.


Now that I'm off to China soon, you come out with the wisdom that Haikou is questionable even for the most die hard enthusiasts. Thanks for that, for waiting until my trip was confirmed and booked ;-)


BTW. Did Maroon 5 write a song about your green contours?


Keep up the good work!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Ran, thanks for posting. Another great interview.


Jaeger,


Nice article. I'd like to be the first to test your memory of golf holes. No cheating! While in Munich you played St. Eurach. Tell me about the 6th and 14th holes without looking them up.


Now that I'm off to China soon, you come out with the wisdom that Haikou is questionable even for the most die hard enthusiasts. Thanks for that, for waiting until my trip was confirmed and booked ;-)


BTW. Did Maroon 5 write a song about your green contours?


Keep up the good work!

David - Nick took me to The Valley instead of St. Eurach because the greens were punched. You will have to come up with another test !... Moves like Jagger   (i'm not the best at pop culture!)

[Jaeger Kovich]

Is Mr. Nicklaus' architectural tendency right to left or left to right? It says right to left in the interview, but it seems to me it should be the opposite.


Gracias.

Did I accidentally reverse that? It was clearly a right handed fade tendency. Nice catch!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Thanks, Ran and Jaeger. A good interview and a pleasure to read about someone building a career the right way.  Jaeger, a couple of questions:

1. You have old-school tastes, but in your capacity as a shaper you use (for the most part) new-world technology. Did you/do you find yourself consciously having to "compensate" for the fact that a D6 isn't a rake or shovel (and not even a Bobcat) in order to achieve the look and feel and playability that you're after? Do you need to make yourself rein-in/restrain what the technology can do in order for it to do what you want it to?


I'm not sure "compensate" is the right word, but I think I know what you mean. The answer is two fold: Time and Process. I've worked on projects with serious earth moving, and others like Dismal where we barely had to do anything. You have to take the same approach and mentality towards the detail work we did in Nebraska, and apply it to every job.

A D6 is a large machine, and there are maybe a handful of people in the world that are capable of getting the small scale details right with a dozer that big. In a case like that, coming back through with a smaller dozer (something in the D3-D5 range,) or an excavator to get things dialed would be my ideal next step. Then, in the series of decreasing machine sizes, the sand-pros, rakes and shovels come during the finish process. It takes time to get the last 10%, but it makes all the difference in the end.

2. As you move into consulting and design work, do you think you bring a "shaper's" mentality to the fore?  (By way of analogy: I think a playwright who is given a chance to make a movie will, consciously or not, focus more on the "text";  while a painter who is given the same chance might instead focus on the "visuals". Both will keep the other aspect in  mind, of course, and both will be making movies - but the 'slant' will be different.) Do you think it is the same for gca?


I hope not. I love getting in the excavator or up on dozer, but they are just two of the many tools at my disposal. Reshaping bunkers or tees is fun and flashy, but often money could be spent in better ways, like working on tree removal, grasslines, some other less sexy items, or god forbid even NOT making changes. This is related to what I talk a bit about in the last question of the interview and how I refuse to charge a fee based on a % of a construction budget. Maybe I'm just young and naive, but I believe clubs deserve 100% honest advice from me, and re-shaping or building new things is not always the best answer.

All continued success in the future
Peter   

PS - thanks for your generous words about Mr. Nicklaus. I only "know" him as a golfer - and admit that he's one of my heroes in that regard. But I don't think he gets nearly the credit for being a "continual learner". That is rare enough, I think, but especially so for someone who's had so much success in every area of his life. Man, if I ever win even ONE major, I'm telling you: I'd shut it down and seal it up air tight, and wouldn't be listening to/learning from ANYONE!

Thanks. I really like your phrase "continual learner".

[David Davis]

David - Nick took me to The Valley instead of St. Eurach because the greens were punched. You will have to come up with another test !...

Darn, I was certain I had you there.


Ok Valley holes 4 and 17, no looking at your photos. Funny thing is I've played there a couple times and can't remember hardly any of the holes as to me they are kind of nondescript.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you Ran and Jaeger.


I imagine if you asked most club golfers what they would think about first when laying out a fairway they would say something about where they hoped the ball would be going. Interesting to hear that Jaeger wearing his professional shapers hat thinks surface drainage first and what the ball is doing second.


Hearing directly the views and thoughts of those employed in the golf business is a great aspect to this website.


Atb

[Jaeger Kovich]

David - Nick took me to The Valley instead of St. Eurach because the greens were punched. You will have to come up with another test !...

Darn, I was certain I had you there.


Ok Valley holes 4 and 17, no looking at your photos. Funny thing is I've played there a couple times and can't remember hardly any of the holes as to me they are kind of nondescript.

4 is a longer par 4 following the par-3 with water on the right. There is a property line left near the tee. Raised green.


17 is the narrow shortish 4 with the mounding down the sides of the hole. Long narrow green, decent hole I thought.

[Jon Cavalier]

Jaeger:

Really enjoyed your interview. Sands Point looks gorgeous.

Like you, I'm a huge fan of Tillinghast, and count Quaker Ridge among my favorite of his courses. I've seen some discussion on these boards about the 9th hole, which I love, and whether it is or is not a Redan par-3. Can you settle this once and for all?

You talk a lot about fairway shaping as a key element of good golf course design. I remember seeing your criticism of Ferry Point as having failed in this regard. I'm not typically a big fan of Nicklaus designs, but I thought Ferry Point was well done in this regard. What am I missing? Would you be so kind as to share your thoughts on where this course fails, and what you would do to improve it?

I'm also a huge fan of Ridgewood and I think the bunkering there is fantastic. Such a lovely golf course. I didn't realize you were involved in that project and that you were working with Gil Hanse and Todd Raisch. Though you touch on this in the interview, I would love to hear more about it. What is it like working with Hanse and Raisch? Do you guys ever disagree? Who has final say? How is the work distributed? How often are you on the ground there? Are you working off of something concrete showing the original Tillinghast work or are you guys extrapolating from experience?

Thanks again for taking the time to do this interview. Really enjoyed reading it.

Jon

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger:

Really enjoyed your interview. Sands Point looks gorgeous.


Thanks Jon, although I must remind you, it is the Village Club of Sands Point. Sands Point Golf Club is the Tillinghast course down the street.

Like you, I'm a huge fan of Tillinghast, and count Quaker Ridge among my favorite of his courses. I've seen some discussion on these boards about the 9th hole, which I love, and whether it is or is not a Redan par-3. Can you settle this once and for all?


Ah, yes that old thread! I will say this: It is clearly not a Redan in any traditional sense. There is no ground game option or run-up, like the many the Mac/Raynor/Banks group built. I think what a much younger me was attempting to articulate back then was that I was seeing and theorizing that it could have been inspired by the redan template, one that I had seen Tilly build before. The bunker scheme on plan view (note the foreground bunkering), the 45 degree angle the green is set at, the right/left and front/back slope of the green, etc. There were a lot of similarities I was seeing back then as I was testing out some of my theories on the use of templates in Tillinghast's work... Is it a text book redan? Obviously not, but can you see why I was drawing lines between the two?

You talk a lot about fairway shaping as a key element of good golf course design. I remember seeing your criticism of Ferry Point as having failed in this regard. I'm not typically a big fan of Nicklaus designs, but I thought Ferry Point was well done in this regard. What am I missing? Would you be so kind as to share your thoughts on where this course fails, and what you would do to improve it?


I still haven't been there so until I make out to the Bronx I will just leave this alone and let my comments in the interview about surface drainage speak for themselves.

I'm also a huge fan of Ridgewood and I think the bunkering there is fantastic. Such a lovely golf course. I didn't realize you were involved in that project and that you were working with Gil Hanse and Todd Raisch. Though you touch on this in the interview, I would love to hear more about it. What is it like working with Hanse and Raisch? Do you guys ever disagree? Who has final say? How is the work distributed? How often are you on the ground there? Are you working off of something concrete showing the original Tillinghast work or are you guys extrapolating from experience?


Thanks again for the kind words. Working with Gil and Todd was a lot of fun and an incredible learning experience. They are two of the most professional guys in the business. It was very much a team effort, although I supposed you could say Tillinghast and the photos from 1935 had the final say! Todd did an incredible amount of research, putting together a massive collection of photos (aerial and perspective shots from eye level). We couldn't have done it without Todd, he is a super that totally gets it. An incredibly well traveled student of architecture he was managing 27 holes of Poa greens, a bunker project, and green expansions, during a heatwave and drought. Need I say more about him and his team?!

Between the photos Todd collected and the masterplan Gil put together the two of them made it easy for me. Gil made a lot of the big bunker moves on the dozer himself. Watching him work on that machine in tight quarters is pretty incredible. I spent 96 days on site between late summer and Xmas, mostly in the excavator restoring the bunkers, and fine tuning the grass lines. Gil and Todd gave me a lot of responsibility, and I was always checking back in with them making sure they approved. It was a true team effort between them, myself and our contractor, Kenny from LeBar Golf Renovations.

(There are a number of photos on my website you might enjoy where I compare the 1935 pictures directly next to the work done this fall. http://propergolf.net/ridgewood.html[size=78%])[/size]

Thanks again for taking the time to do this interview. Really enjoyed reading it.

Jon

[Steve Lapper]

Jaeger,


   Interesting that you highlight your involvement at the Village Club Sands Point yet haven't even seen it's elegant Tillinghast neighbor, Sands Point G.C.?? You should try to remedy that ASAP and see Keith Foster's excellent restoration there. Similar to his wonderful work at Philly Cricket Club , Keith stayed quite true to the course's history and architectural pedigree. What it lacks in water views is more than made up for in it's examples and preservation of Tillinghast genius.


  Jon Cavalier raises up a good point in his question (and your subsequent response) about Ferry Point. I certainly recall your adamance about how the site and it's construction was so very flawed. Someone so young in this business might want to refrain from making public and technical criticisms about other courses and their construction...especially those you have yet to even step foot on. Just a word to the wise.....


 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Steve - Thanks for the advice. Sands Point GC has been on the short list for a long time. Keith Foster's restoration work is outstanding. I really enjoyed following the threads on The Philly Cricket Club project. Glad I didn't have to fit Philly Cricket and SFGC in with Ran's question for a top 10 Tillinghast ranking

[Scott Weersing]

"The feature is the smallish knob jutting into the front of the 5th green at Friar’s Head Golf Club."

When I read this I thought of the small knob to the right of the green at Pacific Dunes no. 10. Have you seen it?

I wonder why designers do not build more rumpled fairways and I can think of many reasons. It could be hard to mow. It could be that people like to drive their cart on flat areas. It could be that people expect a flat lie in the fairway. It could be that drives end up in certain spots and then lots of divots.


I like rumpled fairways but they are rare in new courses, except for Old Macdonald.

[V. Kmetz]

Hello to all,


Very interesting interview; some excellent behind the curtain observations to be had; thank you fellows.


JK,


I realize you've been out and about but.....Do you have any update on the status of the 2nd hole at Quaker?


At the Hochster in July, a recent property owner along the right of the drive zone had brought "successful" action against the club, re: a new tee and tree removals had made his yard a hot spot...The kerfuffle resurfaced right in the middle of the tournament; and they were forced to use a 40-70 yard shorter tee, flush to the right.


The situation was quite similar to what WF faced with the 6th hole on the East course a few years back...(they ended up purchasing the "offended" property at a high market rate)


Any updates?


cheers


vk

[Jaeger Kovich]

VK - Thanks for the kind words. I am generally of what is going on with Quaker's 2nd hole. I haven't been back in a while, and I normally don't ask about it when I'm talking to my friends up there. It is a sad situation.

[Jaeger Kovich]

"The feature is the smallish knob jutting into the front of the 5th green at Friar’s Head Golf Club."

When I read this I thought of the small knob to the right of the green at Pacific Dunes no. 10. Have you seen it?

I wonder why designers do not build more rumpled fairways and I can think of many reasons. It could be hard to mow. It could be that people like to drive their cart on flat areas. It could be that people expect a flat lie in the fairway. It could be that drives end up in certain spots and then lots of divots.


I like rumpled fairways but they are rare in new courses, except for Old Macdonald.

Scott, I have played both Pac Dunes and Old Mac a couple of times. Two of my all time favorite courses. Having control of the finish process makes all the difference. Many of the guys on the crews for these courses have gone on to become senior design associates and architects on their own. I find that pretty inspiring. There are a number of architects and shapers dedicated to taking the time and making the effort to get the details right. It is pretty cool to see!

[David Davis]

Ok Valley holes 4 and 17, no looking at your photos. Funny thing is I've played there a couple times and can't remember hardly any of the holes as to me they are kind of nondescript.

4 is a longer par 4 following the par-3 with water on the right. There is a property line left near the tee. Raised green.


17 is the narrow shortish 4 with the mounding down the sides of the hole. Long narrow green, decent hole I thought.





That's impressive Jaeger, nice call. I had to check it myself as I've played there twice and still can't remember those holes for some reason and I'm usually pretty good with that.

[Terry Lavin]

I really enjoyed this interview, particularly the discussion of the Tilly courses in the Met area.  But I was most impressed with this quote of JK:  "What I would say to anyone interested in entering the business over the next 20 years is there is always room for talent in this business, but it takes a lot of hard work as well as luck."

This is a sublime observation that is apt for just about any line of professional endeavor.  Most of the successful people I know recognize that they got to their particular level with a lot of hard work and a little bit of timely luck.  No surprise that the same is true in the gca world! 

[Tom_Doak]

"The feature is the smallish knob jutting into the front of the 5th green at Friar’s Head Golf Club."

When I read this I thought of the small knob to the right of the green at Pacific Dunes no. 10. Have you seen it?

I wonder why designers do not build more rumpled fairways and I can think of many reasons. It could be hard to mow. It could be that people like to drive their cart on flat areas. It could be that people expect a flat lie in the fairway. It could be that drives end up in certain spots and then lots of divots.

Scott:


The knob you mentioned [actually left front of the 10th green at Pacific Dunes] was there all along.  Actually, it was bigger to begin with, but the green and approach had to be raised up three or four feet with sand, as the valley was mostly sandstone on the surface.  So the mound kept getting smaller ... we might have put more on top to preserve some of it in the end, I can't remember for sure, but the idea of it being there was entirely a natural occurrence.


Though possible, it is MUCH harder to add such random features into a site and have them appear natural.  It's much easier to do so if the site already possesses a lot of those sorts of features ... but in that case, you can just use the ones that are already there.