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Niall C

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Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2016, 12:18:20 PM »

Mark

Applaud the guy for being a very good player. I basically agree, why worry about him and his like. Very good players should score well so why waste energy trying to stop them. It sounds like Mr Nicklaus gave him a fairly good challenge and he was up to it, good for him.


The real question is, what was the challenge like for the average golfer ?


Niall

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2016, 01:06:59 PM »
Once again though,

It seems to me its been a very difficult task to decouple in the mind of board members what they see on TV, vs what they have at their club.

 I think most people on this site get it, but to 99% of the population their perception of what golf should be is what they see on TV.  And when the pros are making a mockery of courses that are otherwise challenging to the average weekend joe, then feathers get ruffled, egos get challenged, etc...and off we go to the races in the proverbial course toughening arms race.

Quite frankly I'm not sure how this will change....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2016, 02:26:49 PM »
Kalen:


It changes when architects do the right thing.


It doesn't change if developers keep hiring Tour pros to design courses applying their own perspective on the game.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2016, 03:28:00 PM »
George calls perfect proportionality boring, but many good players would find it satisfying, and right.


I'm sure they believe this. I hope you don't.


Perfectly proportioned would mean no Pete Dye - how do you have a course where two shots 1 foot apart mean that one is dead in the water, and the other is perfectly fine? It would also mean no tricky bunkers - how do you have two shots 1 foot apart where one has an impossible stance and the other a fine stance?


Perfectly proportioned would be the virtual course Dan King wanted 15 years ago, where there is simply a target, and you receive points based on how close you are to the target.


That certainly isn't my idea of good design....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2016, 03:45:04 PM »
Niall,
Exactly, you just applaud and watch in amazement and you sure don't try to defend the golf course just for guys like him. 


George,
No matter how you design a course or who the designer is (not just Pete Dye) you will ALWAYS have situations where you have two shots that are almost identical and one gets rewarded and one does not.  That HAS ALWAYS been part of the game.  It is no different than having two 50 foot putts - one goes in and one hangs on the lip of the hole.  That is the way it is.  The game has never been fair nor was it meant to be.  Trying to design fairness into a golf course is a waste of time.  I have never seen or called a golf hole "unfair".  When I see a hole that would appear to fall into the "unfair" category, I simply call it poorly designed.  That said, there are lots of poorly designed holes out there but even these are sometimes subjective.  A forced carry for example for all golfers of 300 yards would be considered "unfair" for most everyone (not for that guy I played with last summer  :) ) but I simply would call it poor design.  Someone showed a photo of a hole where all three golf balls rolled into the same unplayable lie.  That is not unfair, that is either a design flaw or a maintenance flaw (or if it only ever happened just one time, just plain bad luck)  :)   Deal with it  :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:47:00 PM by Mark_Fine »

George Pazin

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Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2016, 03:57:02 PM »
Mark, I don't disagree at all. I'm simply pointing out what true "perfect proportionality" is. It's simply a target with gradual, ever decreasing returns, depending on how you are from said target. Nobody would embrace it - not me, not Jeff B, not even the better golfers he touts...


Discontinuity is at the heart of the game. There has to be a break somewhere, and someone will always complain that he was treated unfairly.


Who gives a crap what that complainer says???
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2016, 05:35:19 PM »
George,

I agree “Proportional Punishment” is a pithy phrase, but it’s as hard to obtain as perfect turf or bunkers, and I don't obsess over it any more than those other pursuits of perfection, especially any chance to attempt to make it "perfect."  “Rub of the Green” is a part of golf that we can’t/won’t/don’t want to eliminate completely.   And, I agree there is often a break point where similar shots are treated differently.  It can't be helped.

The big picture question is whether the general proportionality concept, loosely, but not obsessively striven for, is a good design goal?  IMHO, golfers expect the occasional serendipity of good shots turning out bad and vice versa, but when it’s repetitive, they object.   A few notice and object (question? complain?) about just one instance of it, as evidenced by the Stream Song thread, and they might appropriately be called complainers if they object to every situation.   

It seems to me that even if designs attempt to hold shots close to where they land, disproportional punishment still happens often enough (bad luck, sharp bunker edges, poor maintenance or seasonal conditions) without the architect purposely helping matters along.  As noted, replacing a sand bunker with a false front/valley of sin is just another type of intended hazard for that part of the green, but I would rarely put one reaching all the way to the center of the green.  Similarly, I haven't done it, but a fairway edge that doesn't hold a shot, or funnels it to a collection bunker (for variety, maybe not a steady diet) seems fine.
 
BTW, regarding Pete Dye, wouldn't you say his lakes lined with strip bunkers to create a two step penalty is proportional punishment thinking?  I have heard him comment that strip bunkers are better than scattered bunkers with turf in between, as all shots are treated the same.  I have never analyzed it, but wouldn't be surprised if Dye uses the strip bunkers more on long holes than short ones, where laying up is more of an option (of course, 18 TPC proves that guess wrong in at least one case)  So, proportionality is not just reward and punishment, but on the next level, reward and punishment relative to shot requirements, etc.

Please note, Tom has admitted a combination of factors came together to create the situation at Stream song 7, and he didn't purposely design it.  He also started this thread giving some of his ideas on how to puzzle proportionality out......but posters with no stake in a project seemingly advocate totally random punishment as the soul of golf?  That seems a bit over done to me.

Perhaps every architect simply has their own ideas of where to apply it, and where to not apply it.  And, of course, nature plays a role.   TD is right....it is a puzzle.

As to who gives a crap about the complainers, in the real world (especially remodels) greens committees wanting to avoid midnight phone calls and architects wanting to retain clients do.....But, I do see what your point is.  If a guy complains all the time, about every bad shot, blames it on other things, etc., his threshold for rub of the green is probably way less than average, and what is obtainable and you have to drown him out.  If twenty reasonable members complain, I begin to think there is something to it.


« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 06:15:44 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2016, 07:01:02 PM »
I have never analyzed it, but wouldn't be surprised if Dye uses the strip bunkers more on long holes than short ones, where laying up is more of an option (of course, 18 TPC proves that guess wrong in at least one case)  So, proportionality is not just reward and punishment, but on the next level, reward and punishment relative to shot requirements, etc.


Jeff:


I don't know for a fact, but I would guess that Mr. Dye uses a long bunker next to the water hazard on courses more often, where there are mandatory setbacks from the edge of a natural water feature.  And if it's a man-made pond, he'll put the turf right to the edge.  Pete is as practical as they come.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2016, 05:05:56 AM »
This is a fantastic post. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.


The topic is one I regularly think about. Having the correct proportionality for golf- something that is not linear in concept but has an element of randomness, forgiveness, firmness and so forth (i.e., not proportionality in a literal sense), is something that I have found to be consistent across the great golf courses. It is difficult to define.


I played a new course in NZ a few years ago built by an amateur architect. It had a number of short 'risk reward' par fours.  The proportionality between 'risk and reward' had been defined by this architect who was a scratch player and hit the ball extremely straight. It was all wrong, the course a let down. Thinking about this course often makes me think about the importance of 'Proportionality'.   
@Pure_Golf

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2016, 05:31:18 AM »
Darts vs Archery.

triple 20 is fractionally away from a 1 or a 5.
Go for a double 17 to finish and miss with a 17 and you can't finish with the next shot.
Plan for a double 16 and miss, and have a double 8, and then a double 4.

With archery, just miss the 10 bullseye and you get a 9.

I can watch quality darts and be enthralled for an hour or more.
I can watch quality archery and be enthralled for perhaps 10 minutes.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2016, 05:47:16 AM »
Darts vs Snooker


In snooker practically every shot can have a strategic risk and reward element. I can watch that for days but the snooker tables are always the same.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2016, 07:41:31 AM »
James,


Interesting analogy, and the closest golf comes is the half par holes like reachable 4 and 5 pars.  Would golfers like a course made up of 18 of those type holes?  Maybe if we could go to match play, but as long as stroke play rules, the human nature of playing safe may prevail to avoid piling up big scores.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2016, 08:36:11 AM »
Mike,

Again, why mention 4 days?  I thought TD and others were talking about real golf in America, not just TV golf. I guess he is right....that TV golf starts to convince us we all need "X" that we see on TV at our courses, damn the expense and damn fun play!

Even in architectural terms, basically the Tour Pros are almost all the same player, armed with distance and uncanny accuracy.  A few (Pavin) survive with less length and greater short games and putting, but overall, top 20 length pretty well parallels the money list.

At the average club, you have a mix of guys with length, with or without accuracy, accuracy, with or without length, and recovery skill.  We aren't concerned with 4 days, we are concerned (or at least I am) with the 4-12 month season, and allowing each of those guys a chance to win at least on some days........
Jeff,
I was saying 4 days because the better player will almost always win over that time frame.  There may be 9 hole stretches or 18 hole stretches where a few breaks went one way for him and another for another but I'm saying in tournament play, be it club or pro, 72 holes allows for the breaks both good and bad.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2016, 09:46:13 AM »
Darts vs Archery.

triple 20 is fractionally away from a 1 or a 5.
Go for a double 17 to finish and miss with a 17 and you can't finish with the next shot.
Plan for a double 16 and miss, and have a double 8, and then a double 4.

With archery, just miss the 10 bullseye and you get a 9.

I can watch quality darts and be enthralled for an hour or more.
I can watch quality archery and be enthralled for perhaps 10 minutes.

James B


I love this analogy! Well done, James.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2016, 11:14:17 AM »
Mike,

Again, why mention 4 days?  I thought TD and others were talking about real golf in America, not just TV golf. I guess he is right....that TV golf starts to convince us we all need "X" that we see on TV at our courses, damn the expense and damn fun play!

Even in architectural terms, basically the Tour Pros are almost all the same player, armed with distance and uncanny accuracy.  A few (Pavin) survive with less length and greater short games and putting, but overall, top 20 length pretty well parallels the money list.

At the average club, you have a mix of guys with length, with or without accuracy, accuracy, with or without length, and recovery skill.  We aren't concerned with 4 days, we are concerned (or at least I am) with the 4-12 month season, and allowing each of those guys a chance to win at least on some days........
Jeff,
I was saying 4 days because the better player will almost always win over that time frame.  There may be 9 hole stretches or 18 hole stretches where a few breaks went one way for him and another for another but I'm saying in tournament play, be it club or pro, 72 holes allows for the breaks both good and bad.


And I'm wondering if most designs really ought to focus mostly on club tournaments over a course you could enjoy every day?


I also note that your take of identifying the best player after a certain time period, whatever that may be, also has worked against Jame's dart analogy.  It would seem a collection of straightforward holes might ID the best players better than the half par or what they call "high event" type play in hockey.  Or, in other words, slow and steady seems to win the race.


But, if you put a lot of reachable par 4 and 5 holes to increase the excitement for viewers (who don't exist for club tourneys.....) or even contestants, the longer player would surely benefit to an unbalanced degree, no?  So, 90% of competitors would get bored easily, having no chance to win.


That said, this exchange really morphs from the original topic of proportionality to design balance, and may not be applicable.  I do enjoy hearing the opinions of many on a pure theoretical topic like this one, though.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2016, 01:52:10 PM »
I'll go further than Jeff:  I just don't care about identifying the best player, as a part of design. 


It's up to the best player to identify himself, by proving it on the field of play.  And I sort of like stacking the deck against him, to see if he can still prevail.  I try my best to think of things that are relatively harder for the good player than for the average guy -- i.e., things that would reduce the Slope rating of the course.


Keeping the course relatively short is a great start in that department.  The longer a course plays, the higher the slope rating, and the more consistently the low-handicap player wins.  Maybe that's why they push everyone to make courses long no matter whether it's intended to host championships or not.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2016, 01:53:54 PM »
Darts vs Archery.

triple 20 is fractionally away from a 1 or a 5.
Go for a double 17 to finish and miss with a 17 and you can't finish with the next shot.
Plan for a double 16 and miss, and have a double 8, and then a double 4.

With archery, just miss the 10 bullseye and you get a 9.

I can watch quality darts and be enthralled for an hour or more.
I can watch quality archery and be enthralled for perhaps 10 minutes.

James B

James,

that is because darts is all about the score not the accuracy where as archery is all about the accuracy not the score. Golf is like darts about the score. Were it like archery it would be played on the driving range.

Jon

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2016, 03:43:07 PM »
Oh, Jon

I like that.  You've improved my analogy very well there.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2016, 04:31:40 PM »
I think if someone somehow managed to come up with a perfectly proportional course, so that every incrementally worse shot from perfection wound up in a slightly worse position, the golf course would be tremendously boring. You would always walk onto every tee and instantly know where you had to hit it. Then your result would be purely in line with how you performed on the shot. I don't want that. I want shots where I can take on the heroic shot and risk a whole lot or take the more percentage play and deal with the consequences.


The hole that popped into my head reading about this was 18 at TPC Sawgrass. The ideal shot from the tee is one that is down the left side of the fairway. It allows you to play away from the water with your second shot and gives you the best angles at the green. But, if you tweak it a bit left, you're done. If you hit it straight there, you're dropping it at the end of the tee and playing your third, facing the same problem. Funnily enough it is a hole that is fairly proportional as you miss further and further to the right. Hit it in the right half and you have a tougher angle into the green. Right semi, you have a tougher angle and less control. Right rough, you have a tougher angle and even less control again. Miss it well to the right and you're in the trees and pitching out. I'm not sure it's even possible to miss it so far right you're in better shape. Crucially though, that side is only interesting because the left side pushes you that way. Left is not proportional there. If both sides were the same it would be dull as ditch water.


I think a better definition of proportionality is not that each shot should be punished incrementally more as it becomes worse, but rather every player should experience the same level of enjoyment depending on how they play relative to their normal level. That's fairly difficult to achieve, but not impossible.

Joe Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2016, 03:53:07 PM »
Hi Greg,

The answer is no. What Mr. Doak is talking about is something like this passage from Nicolas Taleb’s book, Fooled By Randomness: The main point of the Gaussian, as I’ve said, is that, as we kept saying, that most observations hover around the mediocre, the average; the odds of a deviation declining faster and faster (“exponentially”) as you move away from the average.” In that sense, we might expect that bad shots might be penalized in accordance with how poorly they are hit: that bad shots should follow a gaussian distribution, so to speak. This is what Taleb calls “Mediocristan.”

But there is another realm, this one called “Extremistan.” In this place, events are scalable: in technical terms, they obey what mathematicians call power laws. In this place, as actions or events or whatever move away from the standard, they do not become as unlikely as they do under a gaussian regime. In other words, crazy shit can happen. This is why billionaires are more common than nine-foot tall people: human height follows a gaussian distribution pattern, while the distribution of money does not.

(As a sidelight, it is Taleb’s argument that it was the failure to allow for extreme events that led to the 2007 financial crash and the 1998 Long Term Capital bankruptcy. So this is a non-trivial subject.)

Does this help anyone?

Joe


Joe:


Don't put [big] words in my mouth!  Taleb's last book [Antifragile] is probably the best I've ever read, but I learned much more there about how the world works, and why our "trial-and-error" shaping method works so well instead of plans. 


I've never really tried to apply what he wrote to golf strategy.  I suppose there is something there, about how people's demands for order and security are counter to the real nature of the game -- Nature's "order" is much more complex and has no guarantees of what might be around the next corner.


Hi Mr. Doak,
[/size]
[/size]Well, I am sorry to be seen as “putting words in your mouth”—and I by no means intend to be fractious here—but your concept of the “paradox of proportionality” is precisely what Taleb is talking when he discusses the difference between the two regimes of “Extremistan” and “Mediocristan.” It’s also what someone meant earlier when they described the difference between darts and archery—which is also the difference between stroke play and match play. Think about it: stroke play features [/size]cumulative scoring[/size], while match play features [/size]discontinuous scoring[/size]. Essentially, what the “paradox of proportionality” means is a match play regime, while the other, “Crane-like” sort is a stroke play regime. Is this not what you mean? If not then I am afraid I am entirely at sea.
[/size]
[/size]Thank you for elucidating,
[/size]
[/size]Joe

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2016, 04:20:38 PM »
I think if someone somehow managed to come up with a perfectly proportional course, so that every incrementally worse shot from perfection wound up in a slightly worse position, the golf course would be tremendously boring. You would always walk onto every tee and instantly know where you had to hit it.


Not when wind is involved......and wind is perfectly proportionate, BTW.  The harder it blows, the harder the shot is, excepting of course, the dreaded swirling winds caused in tightly treed areas.


When was the last time wind was a factor in darts?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2016, 05:12:02 PM »
Hi Jeff,
[/size]
[/size]I’m afraid that I do not buy your thought that wind is proportional. While it is true that wind itself might be constant (though obviously it can gust, which itself does damage to your contention), it is also true that the wind’s effect on each hole will vary depending on each hole’s compass direction, the strength of the player, the conditioning of the course, etc. In other words, wind may have a great effect on one hole, or shot on a hole, while being minimal on another hole during the same round. If anything, wind is rather an example of disproportion rather than the contrary.
[/size]
[/size]Such is how I see it, anyhow. 
[/size]
[/size]Joe

Joe Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2016, 05:17:01 PM »



That wind is disproportionate, rather than proportionate, I think can been shown by the fact that it is precisely on the old links-style “strategic” courses that wind is the chief factor, whereas on modern “penal” style courses wind is not nearly as big a deal. To say that wind is proportionate is, I’m sorry to have to say, to get things exactly backwards. If I am mistaken please educate me.

Thanks!

Joe

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2016, 06:16:42 PM »
Whether wind is proportionate or disproportionate has nothing to do with the paradox TD is talking about, which is about golf architecture and the kind of things a good architect should should try to do or should not try to do with his design.


Weather is weather. It is not an architectural choice.


Bob

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2016, 06:44:36 PM »
I think if someone somehow managed to come up with a perfectly proportional course, so that every incrementally worse shot from perfection wound up in a slightly worse position, the golf course would be tremendously boring. You would always walk onto every tee and instantly know where you had to hit it.


Not when wind is involved......and wind is perfectly proportionate, BTW.  The harder it blows, the harder the shot is, excepting of course, the dreaded swirling winds caused in tightly treed areas.


When was the last time wind was a factor in darts?


You still know where you have to hit it. You might not know where you have to aim it or how to get it there, but you know where you want the ball to finish. And everyone would try to hit it there because the closer you get to it, the better off you would be.

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