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Tom_Doak

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The Paradox of Proportionality
« on: February 02, 2016, 01:40:31 PM »
This phrase [which Michael Whitaker has used as his tag line for a while] was just something I said off the top of my head a few years ago in a discussion here.  It's recently caused someone to bring Joshua Crane back to the discussion group, so I thought I would try to avoid that by explaining what I meant here.


It's a pretty simple concept, really, and one that most architects should be aware of.  We often hear golfers, in the heat of the moment after a round, complain that such and such a penalty for one of their shots was "unfair," because an opponent who hit his shot even further off line was penalized less harshly than our hero who hit a straighter shot.  Looked at from the narrow viewpoint of a single golfer, their complaint makes sense to most.


But what if we extrapolate the demand for "fairness" to its logical conclusion?  What you would get is a course on the straight and narrow ... for every yard offline you hit a particular shot, you'd get a proportionately harder next shot.  [If you looked at it in grayscale, there would be a white line down the middle, with the gray getting progressively darker as you strayed offline.]  It would make the game easiest for the good player, and hardest for the bad player.  Half of golfers would quit the game, because they wouldn't be good enough to cope.


The paradox is that good players need to be challenged, and bad players need a way around that doesn't cost them too much; but if you design a course strictly to punish bad shots proportionately, you get just the opposite of that.  Solving that paradox is what golf course architecture is all about.


The problem starts with defining "good" vs. "bad" shots.  Just because a golfer hits the shot solidly in the direction he wants, doesn't mean he's made a good choice of where to play.  If you go for the green on the 16th at Cypress Point when you can't make the carry, it doesn't matter how good you hit it.


The same applies to choosing a line close to any severe hazard.  Most great holes are intended so that the closer you play to the trouble, the easier the next shot ... but that means there is a very fine line between "perfect" and "bad".  [If you looked at them in grayscale, there would be a white line down the middle, light gray getting darker to one side of the center, and dark gray right away on the other side of the white.]




Does that mean I want good shots to receive bad results?  Not at all, but you have to define what a "good" shot is.  A good shot is a shot that winds up inside the golfer's expected margin of error.  If his shot finds a hazard, then by definition, though the swing might have been a good one, the player must have miscalculated on where to aim.   


If someone flies their shot past the back hole location on #7 at Streamsong, I don't want it to always wind up in the water, but I do want there to be a chance of that, so they're afraid to fly the ball back to that part of the green.


Does that mean I want the outcome of each shot to be random?  Again, no.  We build holes with the idea that certain shots are going to leave difficult recoveries.  We have loaded up the penalty on one side of the hole; but we're still willing to let the player have a chance to get up and down sometimes.


Golf isn't shuffleboard ... if you go over the green you're not supposed to automatically wind up with "7," or else we could just play the whole game on the range.  Sometimes you are going to get lucky and maybe have a chance to get up and down, sometimes not.  We count on those things to even out over the course of your lifetime, if they don't always do so over the course of 18 holes.  A golf course is really just too big a playing field for it to be any other way.


Talking about an "almost perfect" shot is a fallacy.  If you flirt with a hazard and find it, you have to take what you get.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:18:19 PM by Tom_Doak »

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 02:18:54 PM »
Thanks for posting that, Tom.  I can now admit that I never understood what you meant by that phrase. I always knew it meant something, and it was certainly eye-catching, but I couldn't see how "the paradox" (i.e. an apparent contradiction) fit into it. I'm not sure that I see that even now. But after reading your post, and if you don't mind me saying, I think some other "p" word might've been better, e.g. the paradigm of proportionately, or the pitfalls of proportionality, the penalty of proportionality. Maybe the line could be:

"Properly puzzling out the proportionality paradigm for potential penalties promotes participation while protecting par -- the perennial philosophy of perceptive architectural purveyors and practitioners from times past but a presumed fallacy for pedantic perfectionists, phony players and pampered pros who pitifully prostrate themselves at the proclamations promulgated by that prim and persnickety prophet of old, Joshua Crane."

Granted, not nearly as pithy as yours, and perhaps reflective of the fact that I still don't understand....
               

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 02:22:05 PM »
Peter:


The paradox is that what makes perfect sense for an individual player -- proportional penalty -- makes no sense at all for the larger universe of players, especially those whose games are not so good. 


The proportions of good and bad are different for every different player.

Andy Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 02:31:04 PM »
I think that this depends on the setting. If I am playing a high-level championship, then I would want someone that misses a shot by 50 yards to be more penalized than someone who misses a shot by a few mere yards.  A good example is how the USGA has implemented progressive cuts of rough.  I think high-level championship level venues do a good job of it versus your local muni where you can blast it two fairways over and have a good shot back to the pin.   


I think you have to look at approaches to greens as a different story, certain pins create a risk and reward for players.  If a player goes for a challenging pin and misses they should be penalized for doing so.   


So my take is circumstantial, I think golf needs to do things that help people enjoy playing more but the penalties for missing fairways should get greater the bigger you miss. 




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 02:41:31 PM »
Andy,
Sorry, but that messed up and I don't have the time to post again. You will all muddle through without my thoughts.....I am sure.  The thread may even be proportionally better! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 02:41:58 PM »
Peter:

The paradox is that what makes perfect sense for an individual player -- proportional penalty -- makes no sense at all for the larger universe of players, especially those whose games are not so good. 

The proportions of good and bad are different for every different player.

Ah...so, the paradox is "resolved" or shown to be merely an apparent contradiction by the fact that a single (i.e. the same) well-designed golf course can appropriately penalize each individual (and every different player) while at the same time not advocating or promoting proportionality per se, uniformly across a wide-range of golfers.     

Jeff - I managed to read your post by a little trick (which is to 'quote' the post in a follow-up) and if I understood it was struck by how Donald Ross' notion of how bunkers should 'play' - i.e. more penalty for those who miss more badly -- can reflect/lead to/support "proportionality".
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:47:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 02:43:50 PM »
""Properly puzzling out the proportionality paradigm for potential penalties promotes participation while protecting par -- the perennial philosophy of perceptive architectural purveyors and practitioners from times past but a presumed fallacy for pedantic perfectionists, phony players and pampered pros who pitifully prostrate themselves at the proclamations promulgated by that prim and persnickety prophet of old, Joshua Crane."

Utterly understandable understatement of TD's ultimate, undeniable undoing of Joshua Crane. ;)

Bob
 

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 02:47:28 PM »
Peter -


Yes, sort of. The notion is to resist the sporting instinct we all have in assuming that really bad shots should always be punished more severely than less bad shots. That assumption leads to bad golf courses and the kinds of problems Tom points out above.


Bob

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 02:49:24 PM »
I think that this depends on the setting. If I am playing a high-level championship, then I would want someone that misses a shot by 50 yards to be more penalized than someone who misses a shot by a few mere yards.  A good example is how the USGA has implemented progressive cuts of rough.  I think high-level championship level venues do a good job of it versus your local muni where you can blast it two fairways over and have a good shot back to the pin. 


Andy:


Actually, I detest the idea of graduated rough for championships because it sends the wrong signal to everyone else ... that their course should also be like that, when that patently doesn't work for the guys at the local muni.


Graduated rough is based on the notion that golf architecture is about punishment, rather than reward.  You need to think about it the other way around, that we are only trying to reward the golfer who hits a great shot, and anything short of great could find trouble, but not consistently.



Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 02:58:38 PM »
In my simple mind the better golfer one becomes the less he worries about good shots and learns to work for good misses.  And yet the perfectly struck shot is what keeps the beginning golfer coming back for more.  Using TD's grayscale, the guy who plays on the edge of the light gray will probably be a much better player than the one who feels he has to play on the white...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2016, 02:59:17 PM »
Agreed Tom, yet the USGA and the PGA continue to boast of their graduated roughs. I think I heard the R&A making the same boast about its Open set-up recently.


Joshua Crane is still with us, more than most appreciate.


Bob

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2016, 03:03:35 PM »
A shot that's way off-line is already punished by definition.   Why should the architect purposefully pour salt into that wound?  Why stomp out any chance of heroic recovery and extinguish any remaining hope?

I think that's a big part of what Tom is saying...although I may be proportionately incorrect by several degrees.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:12:54 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2016, 03:05:02 PM »
Perfectly proportioned golf would end up perfectly boring.


You have to flirt with danger to have some fun. You have to occasionally overcome a challenge to feel fulfilled.


That's life (but not life as many of today's ___s imagine it... :) ).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2016, 03:11:01 PM »
Tom,

to me golf offers a similar challenge as life does. Every person should start off their round with three things:

1. Knowing what their capabilities are
2. Knowing what result they would like to end up with
3. A game plan for the round that will get them there.

During the round things never pan out as is intended and it is how able/willing the player is to adapt to the new situation that will determine the outcome.

The GCA needs to ensure that all levels of golfer can realistically achieve this. Proportionality for me has nothing to do with fairness. It is part of the challenge to overcome the adversities that pop up during the round. No, for me proportionality is to do with playability. As soon as a course is not playable for a player then it has lost this part of design.

Taking #7 at Streamsong as an example.

The run off at the back of the green is not such an issue as once you know about it you can avoid it should you chose. If you do play for the back of the green then it is a calculated risk to do so. Should you take this on and fail then it was the judgement that was found wanting not the result or challenge. Worst case scenario is a penalty drop from the water, harsh yes but fair.

Were the carry to the green such that a player cannot make it and there is no other way to play the hole then I would consider the design to be flawed and lacking in proportionality. The hole would be unplayable for the player and it is the GCA's job to challenge the abilities of the player not punish the weaknesses.

Jon

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2016, 03:12:41 PM »
"A shot that's way off-line is already punished by definition.   Why should the architect purposefully pour salt into that wound?"

Mike - That is sometimes true, but it is sometimes not true.

For example, I would rather play from an adjoining fairway after my duck hook than play from a fw bunker after my slight draw. Ceteris paribus.

Bob

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2016, 03:19:00 PM »
Were the carry to the green such that a player cannot make it and there is no other way to play the hole then I would consider the design to be flawed and lacking in proportionality. The hole would be unplayable for the player and it is the GCA's job to challenge the abilities of the player not punish the weaknesses.
Jon


Very nicely put Jon. And not just the green either.
Atb

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2016, 03:23:01 PM »
"A shot that's way off-line is already punished by definition.   Why should the architect purposefully pour salt into that wound?"

Mike - That is sometimes true, but it is sometimes not true.

For example, I would rather play from an adjoining fairway after my duck hook than play from a fw bunker after my slight draw. Ceteris paribus.

Bob

Bob,

You're telling me that your duck hook isn't a purposefully strategic play?   :o :D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2016, 03:24:19 PM »
Mike - Trust me on that.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2016, 03:30:37 PM »
"A shot that's way off-line is already punished by definition.   Why should the architect purposefully pour salt into that wound?"

Mike - That is sometimes true, but it is sometimes not true.

For example, I would rather play from an adjoining fairway after my duck hook than play from a fw bunker after my slight draw. Ceteris paribus.

Bob

Ian gave an example of a shot through the dogleg which sometimes ends up as good as otherwise.

All in all, I get proportionality, even strive for it in basic form, I just don't obsess about it a whole lot.  Everyone knows that there will be occasions of serendipity where a good shot turns out bad and vice versa.  If a course is full of those, they begin to notice.  George calls perfect proportionality boring, but many good players would find it satisfying, and right.

As noted, proportionality should apply differently to each player and their skills, but like kids comparing the size of their cake slice relative to their siblings, they will also start to judge on how a course treats them relatively to other types of players.

For instance, wide fairways are usually seen as a bombers paradise, favoring long and maybe wild over short and straight.  Flynn, I think wrote that you should always favor accuracy first, and in my view, you need a few tight and a few moderate width fairways mixed in to proportionally reward different groups of player strengths over a long golf season.

Ditto greens sized to USGA Slope recommendations.  I understand and use the concept, but purposely look for a few opportunities to make some proportionally smaller and larger, because this formula makes greens different sizes, but the same proportional difficulty in approach.

At the same time, perfect proportionality is just never going to be obtainable in almost any form, just like perfect turf and perfect sand bunker conditions.  And, no matter how hard we try in course design and setup, we want don't want to ever erase the rub o the  green completely.

Perfect Proportionality is a pithy sound bite, but much harder to attain in the real world, and much more nuanced to understand completely.  Especially for architects, who as TD notes, must consider how a whole lot of people feel about it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2016, 03:34:56 PM »
I think that this depends on the setting. If I am playing a high-level championship, then I would want someone that misses a shot by 50 yards to be more penalized than someone who misses a shot by a few mere yards.  A good example is how the USGA has implemented progressive cuts of rough.  I think high-level championship level venues do a good job of it versus your local muni where you can blast it two fairways over and have a good shot back to the pin.   


I think you have to look at approaches to greens as a different story, certain pins create a risk and reward for players.  If a player goes for a challenging pin and misses they should be penalized for doing so.   


So my take is circumstantial, I think golf needs to do things that help people enjoy playing more but the penalties for missing fairways should get greater the bigger you miss.


On top of the points already made, what about the shot that is even further offline and ends up in tramped down rough with a clean lie. This method does not work all that well in championship golf.


On top of that, the pristine hazards will typically offer a better lie compared with a thick, graduated rough.






MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 03:56:18 PM »
To Ryan's point, once again this week in San Diego the announcers were commenting on the "Get in the bunker" mentality on tour where the predictably easy shot from a perfectly-groomed sand hazard was vastly favored by players over the predictably variable shot from the thick rough.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 04:03:26 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Charlie_Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2016, 04:18:16 PM »
How I wish the pros would play from bunkers that weren't groomed. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2016, 04:37:13 PM »
TBH, why should tournament golf enter this theory discussion?  I doubt proportionality applies the same as for every day play.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2016, 04:40:00 PM »
Tom - thank you for sharing your thoughts and providing some detail on the "paradox" concept. It's only been 10 years since you made that comment... I'm glad to finally get a better understanding.  ;)

My question about proportionality was originally prompted by a comment a magazine rater friend made concerning The Ocean Course at Kiawah. He said he deducted points from TOC because missing a fairway there by an inch was just as bad as by a mile... virtually the death penalty. He is an excellent player and a serious advocate of proportional penalties in course design, so he lowered his ranking of TOC as a result.

I agree that this concept assumes design features are only there to punish and lowers golf to a target game that could be played on the driving range. I'd much rather play the game on a course that gives me options and let's me decide how I want to proceed, rather than choosing the "one true line" for me and proportionally punishing me the farther I stray from that line.

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike Bowen

Re: The Paradox of Proportionality
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2016, 04:47:45 PM »
Great post Tom.  However, wouldn't life be more grand if Bubba Watson would of found a more defined hazard for his poor tee shot on 10th of the 2012 Masters.  That way the end result would of been more predictable and we wouldn't of had to watch his recovery shot that set up his win.  Can anyone actually say they appreciate the unpredictability of golf?  Which is why I appreciate what the USGA has done with the US Open.  Where would we be today without great champions like Webb Simpson, Lucas Glover, Michael Campbell, and Steve Jones.  ;D

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