help re Sunningdale (NY )

[mark chalfant]

Over a decade ago I was impressed  with the quality of this hilly course

once attributed to  Tillinghast.

I fear the  bunkers may have been compromised  in the 1990s by a nearby architect whose name  I wont mention  ( K  ).

I believe  George Bahto   discovered info that  indicated Seth  Raynor

played  a major role in current routing.

Is this course worth a look  ?

Any restoration  plans at   this  club,  

thanks

[Michael J. Moss]

Hi Mark,
In Dr. Bill Quirin's "Golf Courses of the MGA," Sunningdale is listed as a Walter Travis design with AW Tillinghast involved in making course improvements. This is only part of the story.

You are correct - George Bahto now has another course that was originally laid out and built by Raynor. Hopefully, in the not too distant future  (before I'm reduced to hitting grounders), George will help us bring back some of Raynor's flavor since he was such an important part of our story. It's quite a commentary, but we have such a sleepy membership that, somehow, this piece of our golf course's history was lost and forgotten.

Nevertheless, we found documentation that describes Raynor's involvement. But, sadly, when the course was opened for play in 1918, it was probably quite difficult with too many blind shots for their taste. Less then two years after completion, the club leaders brought in Travis to make changes. Among these,the green of Raynor's "Prize Dogleg" was moved along with others. The "Alps" green was pulled out of its hidden locale and put  into view. The "Redan" was taken out in 1930 (by Tillinghast) to make room for the swimming pool (very sad  ) ect.

Right now the membership is focused on a major renovation of the clubhouse, so the golf course has been put on the back burner. IMHO the golf course is on really good land and the routing is strong. There is no question that a few of our holes need strengthening (don't ask me what that means) and the bunkers are not reflective of a course of its vintage. The good news is our superintendent keeps the course in wonderful shape. However, the attitude of our membership regarding their course has to change before we do another renovation. We have many connoisseurs, but they are, unfortunately, not of the golfing variety.  

[the old man]

according to a green committee report, 11/26/20, work had been completed on putting bunkers on 2,4, 8, 14, 15, and 17 "in accordance with the plans of Mr. Travis".  in addition, "new greens" for 1 through 9, 10, 13, and 14.  the report mentions other work done there.  based on this info, the travis society listing of travis courses includes sunningdale as a 'renovation/remodel' project.  anyone wanting a copy of the complete report, we'd be glad to oblige:  TravisSociety@yahoo.com
could anyone advise as to when raynor and tillinghast did there work there, and when did this architect (K?) leave his mark on the bunkering?  thanks.

[Michael J. Moss]

Dear Mr. Old Man,

The note you are quoting from does NOT mention new greens on holes "one through nine." Take another (careful) look at it. You are correct with regard to greens 1,9,10,13 and 14. These are the Travis greens. The only confusion stems from   Tillinghast, who added our par-3 12th hole. When that was done, the 13th and 14th greens by Travis became our 14th and 15th greens. The 12th was added when the 17th and 18th holes were combined to make room for the swimming pool. That's easy to follow  !

Tillinghast built our current 1st,12th, and 18th greens. He also made modifications to greens 16 and 17. Unfortunately a Green Committee decision in 1995, prompted by architect "K", led to the blowing up of our 7th green, which originally was the "Road Hole" green complex  .  We believe our 6th green was built by Robert White, who was first retained by the club in 1922 to assist the green committee with any improvements they deemed advisable. This was the "Alps" hole that I mentioned earlier. The membership must have considered the blind approach to be "unfair" - a sad conclusion  .

Raynor was hired in 1916 and the course was completed in July of 1918.

[T_MacWood]

I had no idea this course had such an interesting history....I had always been under the impression it was a Tillinghast. Before the changes in the 1990's would you characterize the course as a Travis course or a Raynor course (or maybe a Tillie course)? Or an amalgamation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hermanbarron,

Sadly, more and more golf clubs seem focused on everything but their treasured golf courses.

Good Luck.

[George_Bahto]

Sunningdale could be characterized as an evolution from the Raynor 1913, a course apparently deemed too difficult for the membership or powers in charge at the time, to a Travis modification to make the course less difficult (as hermanbarron said "get rid of the blindshots" ??), to Tillinghast who really did not leave a heavy mark on the course. (........ we'll not go into the 1990's)

There were other issues in between but that's the major early scenario.

I think the Tillie name was "attached" to the course over the later years because of the close proximity to other Tillie course to Sunningdale.

Why the name "Sunningdale" has been an interesting question to hermanbarron and myself. Could one of the holes have been a Bottle hole (the last portion of this style hole (CB & SR) was taken by Macdonald from the Sunningdale Old. We haven't found the answer yet.

Great property - great routing!

[the old man]

to mr. bahto--thanks for your rundown on sunningdale.  in regards to the point about holes 1 thru 9, i apparently misinterpreted the hyphen that follows "1st-" and precedes "9th".  there is a comma there which probably cancels the hyphen.  
interesting the notion that travis was brought in to make the course easier, given his reputation among some as being of the 'penal school of design' (a contention i would dispute).

again, thanks for the information you have provided re sunningdale.  it will go into our file on your course.
ed homsey, archivist/treasurer for the travis society (also, an old man).  

[the old man]

modification of my posting.  should have thanked mr. hermanbarron also.  i confused his and bahto's messages.  new at this.

[George_Bahto]

that's because hermanbarron are on the same page and think as one ......... for the good of the course

[George_Bahto]

sorry - cause hermanbarron and I are on the same page etc

geez - getting older by the day