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JJShanley

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3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« on: February 04, 2016, 06:30:46 PM »

While watching the WM Open earlier, I noticed the sand area in front of the 3rd green had red hazard markings.  You'll find an aerial below with my added red poles.  (Not to scale.)




Question: why mark a sand hazard in such a way?  The announcer described it as a "wash"; do the hazard markings prevent a player taking free relief from a ball landing there during wet weather or flooding? 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 06:41:28 PM »
I don't know if I've seen that before, but I'd guess the purpose is to prevent you from grounding your club in the sand near the green, as you can in the desert which is "through the green".  They don't want to call it a bunker, because it's so weird to define the bunker starting and stopping in the middle of the desert, so they call it a hazard instead.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2016, 06:55:20 PM »
Thank you.  I had no idea that that you could ground your club in the desert.  I might have scored better at Wigwam and Pagago when I visited PHX in 2014.  Every day's a school day, I suppose.

Sean_A

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Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 06:58:05 PM »
If the stakes are meant to mark the waste area as a hazard near the green they don't do a vey good job; only the right half of the green is marked...it strikes me as completely arbitrary.   


It sounds wierd, but could the markers outline where golfers are to walk up to the green?   


Ciao
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 07:07:08 PM »
They should just mark the entire desert as ground under repair and allow you to PLACE it in one of those very natural looking electric white bunkers ::) ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Greg Chambers

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Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 10:04:35 PM »
The green at the third hole at Scottsdale needs to be blown up and redone.  It might be the worst designed green I've ever seen.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2016, 12:01:05 AM »
I'm guessing that the area between the red markers is a walking route to the green and consequently marked as a lateral hazzard and a club can not be grounded there as opposed to the rest of the wash.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 12:19:01 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Topp

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Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2016, 12:28:00 AM »
Washes are commonly marked as water hazards on desert courses.  I assume because they carry water at certain times, they meet the definition in the rules.   


I would be surprised, however, if the only area played as a hazard is within the area marked by those stakes.  It is more likely that the entire wash (at least the part that carries water during a big storm) is marked as a hazard. 

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2016, 12:42:20 AM »
There are no red stakes elsewhere noted in the wash. If it was just a walkway, why is it marked with red stakes? I can ground my club at my club in the desert if it's not marked.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Topp

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Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2016, 12:57:47 AM »
There are no red stakes elsewhere noted in the wash. If it was just a walkway, why is it marked with red stakes? I can ground my club at my club in the desert if it's not marked.


Was there a red line?

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 01:04:00 AM »
There are no red stakes elsewhere noted in the wash. If it was just a walkway, why is it marked with red stakes? I can ground my club at my club in the desert if it's not marked.


Was there a red line?


The other purpose would be to allow a player with a horrible lie to take relief under penalty of a stroke under the hazard rules.  You cannot red-stake an area unless it meets the definition of a water hazard.   Most of the desert does not meet the definition but washes do:



A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.
When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazardmargin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.
A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.
Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.
Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow.
Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area defined as a water hazard.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 01:25:31 AM »
Perhaps the PGAT only designated the white sand bunkers on the course as bunkers  and desert areas on the course as "waste areas" which they allow grounding. They establish their own rules.   At my club, washes have yellow markers. It's hard to tell if this area is red lined. I still think it's a walking area that gets heavy use during the tournament and the PGAT marked it as a hazard. They could have used a different color marker instead and we wouldn't have this discussion.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 01:41:57 AM »
I just looked at the coverage on 3.  The hazard is marked with a red line and runs beyond the red stakes.  The wash diagnonals from the left side of the green back and to the right.  The markings appear to correspond with the area where water would run in a summer thunderstorm. 


The red stake indicated a lateral hazard.  Yellow stakes would indicate a regular hazard.  Anywhere else (i.e. the rest of the desert) would be through the green.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 08:26:38 AM »
I wonder if that actually washes at out any point?  Maybe the water would be significant enough to need a lateral hazard.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2016, 01:55:19 PM »
Just spoke with PGA Tour rules on site. The 4 poles are not red but are used by Shotlink for distance readings. The area is a marked red as a hazard and no grounding is allowed. It's probably a wash but rarely is there water in it as it rainfall here averages about 6" per year.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Cohn

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Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2016, 08:41:23 PM »
The green at the third hole at Scottsdale needs to be blown up and redone.  It might be the worst designed green I've ever seen.


Why?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 3rd at Scottsdale: Bunker as Hazard with poles?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2016, 08:31:17 AM »
Putting the red stakes aside for the moment you have to consider the land as it was before the course was built.  It is desert and it therefor it is entirely sand except for the cactus and other plants as well as rocks.  So they remove the rocks and plants to create tees and fairways, and most importantly here, bunkers.  My experience in playing many courses in Phoenix and Palm Springs, is that you can nearly always tell when you are in the natural sandy desert versus an area where the natural terrain has been moved around to create a bunker. 


I don't remember how they deal with this in the sand hills of Nebraska or at Bandon.  As an aside, to me, the biggest difference between an area that is considered a bunker and that which is not, is what you can remove before playing your shot and if the maintenance crew regularly rakes the area.