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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eco Bunker
« on: January 30, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »
I didn't see any specific threads on this yet Eco Bunker has generated quite a bit of talk recently.


The portfolio of courses is growing rapidly.
http://ecobunker.co.uk/portfolio/


I can understand the cost savings over time but wonder does it look obvious or cheap?


Please discuss.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2016, 06:57:27 PM »
Joel:


I think it's a bit early to judge the results.  I am curious to see how the stuff weathers, to the eye.  As someone previously remarked on this thread, the regular sod-walled bunkers look obviously new right after they're built, too.  Plus, of course, the whole impetus for Eco Bunker is that it will stand up for ten years or more, but that has yet to be proven in the field.


You can tell the difference pretty easily because of the thickness of the material, but it's possible that will be camouflaged quickly by dirt/sand from golfers hitting shots and the growth of lichens or other things.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 07:09:52 PM »
I didn't see any specific threads on this yet Eco Bunker has generated quite a bit of talk recently.

The portfolio of courses is growing rapidly.
http://ecobunker.co.uk/portfolio/

I can understand the cost savings over time but wonder does it look obvious or cheap?

Please discuss.


Luffness.  Huh.  While under the radar in East Lothian, it strikes me as a tradition-orientated club.  I've no opinion on the Eco-bunker as it stands, though I do like the revetted look.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 07:28:47 PM »
In case anyone did not see these videos of the Ecobunker system I have already posted on the two other releted threads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtaNac_yyXI

Ecobunker at Southerdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYWT6UWJZU
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 07:30:29 PM by David_Tepper »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 08:43:27 PM »
According to the S'down comments of saving £400,000 over the next 20 years and the old expenditure of £20,000 year on bunkers....that means these new bunkers have no maintenance costs.  Is that correct?


Just using the numbers, based on a 5 year rolling cycle, the 17 of the 84 bunkers at S'down would get attention each year...meaning the cost per bunker was just under £1200.  Is that right?



Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 09:27:08 PM »

Just using the numbers, based on a 5 year rolling cycle, the 17 of the 84 bunkers at S'down would get attention each year...meaning the cost per bunker was just under £1200.  Is that right?



Sean:


I don't know about Southerndown, but a lot of clubs are rebuilding the bunkers more frequently than once every 5 years.  Bunkers with south-facing slopes seldom hold up that long, those at least are on a 3-year cycle at many clubs.  So, I'm guessing your numbers are a little high on cost per bunker, because they were rebuilding more like 21-25 per year.

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2016, 01:29:22 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, the bunkers at Secession are EcoBunkers. I thought they looked fantastic. Here are a few examples:
















« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 01:36:54 AM by Jon Cavalier »
Golf Photos via
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Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2016, 02:17:25 AM »
Looking at that list it includes Parkland.
 
I was a member of Upminster and their decison to convert some bunkers to revetted, miles from the sea, was just one of the many things that caused me to resign. I haven't seen the new ones but if they are now cheaper, I expect more of them in the most incongrous places.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2016, 04:52:21 AM »
Spangles


I hadn't really thought about that.  But you are right, synthetic bunkers will make it easier for clubs to build more of the damn things  ::)


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 05:35:30 AM »
I guess once Royal Lytham converts all 200+ bunkers to save 1.2 million GBP over the next few years we can all convert to believers, at least in the process saving substantial sums of money.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Michael Graham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2016, 07:27:23 AM »
Time to buy shares in EcoBunker?  :)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2016, 09:53:27 AM »
If clubs insist on revetted, and they last longer...I guess I'm in favor.


Not really a fan of a once natural hazard getting even more artificial, but I'm not really a fan of many bunkers anyway-being as fake and out of place as they are on most sites.



But I'd be a bigger fan if sheep worldwide preferred them ;)


I am curious about those who say they can hit full irons out of revetted bunkers.
and trust me I'm no fan of "fair"...but I do enjoy variety and randomness
i don't think I've seen a recently picture of a revetted bunker that I could hit 7 iron out of-and I can launch it pretty vertically quickly. Certainly haven't come across many playing.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2016, 01:25:30 PM »

I'm not sure if the reservation from some is due to the slim appearance of the astro-turf.


It's surprising that the manufacturers of ecobunker haven't tried to develop a slightly thicker profile more akin to a turf sod or are they simply recycling 'old' astroturf.




JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2016, 01:44:04 PM »

I'm not sure if the reservation from some is due to the slim appearance of the astro-turf.


It's surprising that the manufacturers of ecobunker haven't tried to develop a slightly thicker profile more akin to a turf sod or are they simply recycling 'old' astroturf.


I think they recycle old astroturf.  I don't know whether they could bulk it up with some other material.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2016, 02:09:58 PM »

I'm not sure if the reservation from some is due to the slim appearance of the astro-turf.


It's surprising that the manufacturers of ecobunker haven't tried to develop a slightly thicker profile more akin to a turf sod or are they simply recycling 'old' astroturf.


I think they recycle old astroturf. 


Yes, they do
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 07:48:25 AM »
presumably that is where the eco bit comes in ?


Niall

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2016, 03:45:35 PM »
The newer versions of artificial turf are much more durable?  Look at the evolution of Heavenly Greens.  Regardless as Tom says the durability of Eco Bunkers remains to be seen.


Good points by all.   

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2016, 09:10:21 AM »
Competition:

www.durabunker.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2016, 09:25:33 AM »
I should probably explain. Richard Allen came up with the idea, and he and Rhydian Lewis formed Envirobunker to market the stuff. Rich and Rhydian had a rather unpleasant falling out, sadly as they're both decent guys, and now operate separately as Ecobunker and Durabunker respectively.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Rhydian Lewis

Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2016, 06:06:35 PM »
Have a look at www.durabunker.com for a list of further courses utilizing synthetic bunkers. Original company 'Envirosports Ltd' split into 2 successor companies both now continuing to use synthetic grass to construct sod wall bunkers and bunker edges.

Rhydian Lewis

Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2016, 07:07:26 PM »
Really interesting read for me personally and some great points made. To add a little meat to the bones of Adam's comments and for those interested in the back history, Richard and I originally formed 'Envirosports Ltd' in 2010, I was sitting as Chair of Greens at my local club (Maesteg GC) and Richard part of a development group. I had arranged for the delivery of an old hockey pitch that was being lifted from a local high school for the club to use on pathways, slip areas etc. When the shipment arrived we realized that we hadn't properly thought things through due mainly to the quantity of material that was delivered and how difficult it was to handle. We came up with various ideas including bunker lining and Richards suggestion that the material could possibly be used to build a revetted bunker face. We went on to trial the idea through scale models, using differing construction techniques etc. We subsequently trialled the idea on a new bunker that was part of plans drawn up whilst re-developing a green complex.

Thus the product was born all be it in a fairly unrefined manner and we subsequently brought it to market officially in 2011.

The company ultimately split in 2014 an thus 'Durabunker' and 'Ecobunker' were formed as successor companies.

Sine that time both companies have continued to grow and courses throughout UK, Europe and USA continue to show interest in the product be it via Durabunker or Ecobunker.

Just recently synthetic bunkers featured at the LPGA Tour Championships in Tiburon GC which also hosts a PGA tour event (Franklyn Templeton Shootout) and at courses such as St Enodoc, Royal North Devon, Succession, Medalist, Tennessee National, Golf Club Budersand and Pennard (which is how this thread originally started via Tom's involvement). Many other courses have also jumped on board the synthetic bunker train.

To answer a few questions regarding proven durability, the original bunker shows no signs of failing in any way and is somewhere near 6 years old.  interestingly independent research estimates that the material will take up to 200 (two hundred) years to begin breaking down when buried hence the 20 life design on the product is probably quite conservative.

There is a build up of natural growth which tends to soften the look of the product but can be controlled and removed if a cleaner look is preferred. The cost savings are related to maintenance more than any other aspect, all clients will testify to this though the savings obviously vary based on type of course, style of bunkers, number of bunkers etc.

Many links courses we work with rebuild a set number of revetted bunkers every year, Pennard is one, RNDGC is another and Southerndown (one of Envirosports earliest clients) is another. The cost analysis we did via the original company with Southerndown did in fact reveal that through labour, maintenance and materials, the course was spending in the region of £20,000 per annum on bunkers. Following the installation of what was then 'Envirobunker' these costs were dramatically cut as the bunker faces are close to maintenance free.

Regarding the thicker revetment, we actually developed the 'double stack' method following the split of the original company and used it first in St Enodoc and subsequently on a wall to wall renovation at Tennessee National (some pictures attached). The bunkers at Tennessee National in particular were brutal and for me overly penal but the club wanted to stay in line with the original design intent of Greg Norman. I believe the thicker revetment was then used at Medalist.

We did trial different grades of grass, thicker types when together at Envirosports but at that time there were concerns over certain aesthetic and functional aspects, though since that time further development has taken place with regard thicker grass types and may yet yield more positive results.

Interestingly many more inland courses are now using the product just to edge bunkers, giving them fixed shapes that will maintain design integrity, not need anywhere near the edging work a traditional turf edge would need and doesn't result in bunkers eating further and further into green complexes for example. There are numerous other benefits as well and that style of bunker with a shallow revetment often coupled with a liner is becoming more prevalent here in the UK in particular.

Really interesting and enlightening to read the discussion and long my it continue!! Feel that's enough for one post though but happy to answer questions as objectively as possible from anyone involved in the discussion.

Thanks

Rhydian

PS tried to upload photo's several times (of thicker revetment), keep getting the following message - any advice? Tried a few different browsers and files are jpegs?
  An Error Has Occurred!    The attachments upload directory is not writable.  Your attachment or avatar cannot be saved.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2016, 04:18:47 AM »
Nice to hear about how the Envirosports/Eco-bunker/Durabunker business came about especially your early trials etc. Thanks for sharing the story with us Rhydian and all the best for the future.


As I mentioned on another thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47489.0.html - I played Southerndown recently and here are a couple of photos of their artificial bunkers -


Firstly, one that I guess has not been completed long (apologies, I can't remember the hole number)



Secondly, and I guess this one was done a while ago, the left hand bunker on the delightful par-3 5th hole



atb




Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eco Bunker
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 04:25:10 PM »
Mike Hurdzan used old carpet etc. at Widow's Walk. I read somewhere they began to smell bad.

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