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archie_struthers

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Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« on: January 29, 2016, 02:39:10 AM »
 8)


 A recent  post about tees got me off on a tangent relative to aiming. Sometimes you pick a tree in the distance or a faraway bunker, it's a good practice . However ?


Is it kosher to have aids or even worse aides that enable you to aim better? 


Lastly , why would the USGA , R & A , and tours allow it to continue?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 11:57:14 PM by archie_struthers »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 07:28:24 AM »
Like the cheater line?


Not sure where you're going with this...thinking about banning any markings on the top of a club?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 08:27:42 AM »
Most good players I know like them.  So, its a question of do you give the customer what they want, or deliberately not give aiming devices to be a hero on Golf Club Atlas?  Or split the difference, and design aiming bunkers in, but every once in a while, don't go the WYSIWYG route, and make it the worst target ever just to keep them on their toes? 

I have nothing against them in general, since they are usually very aesthetic too, and can often be used just beyond the normal landing zones to pinch the target for the really long hitters.  I just have to fight a tendency to use them every time out because they make a hole look comfortable.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2016, 08:50:40 AM »
Archie,

Hate the idea on principal.
Golf design should be about making decisions and trying to execute on that line ... not about pampering the player.

I consider aiming points part of "Comfort Architecture" a concept of the 70's, 80's and 90's
It's the main reason why those golf courses are dramatically over bunkered and expensive to maintain.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 09:00:02 AM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2016, 09:45:19 AM »
I'm not relating well to this point.


1. Aiming points, or targets, can vary depending on if  - as an example - the pin is cut on the left or right side of the green and the player wishes an approach shot that provides a better angle on the second shot.


2. Most competent players survey their shot options on the tee, identify where they would like the tee shot to be directed, then draw an "imaginary line" back to their ball and aim at a spot along that line that is perhaps 3 - 10' in front of their ball.


3. It also depends on a player's shot shape - either done with intent or with resignation to the inevitable. There could be 5 aiming points on any given shot:


- hit it straight down the middle "at that big tree behind the green".
- aim at right edge of left-side FW bunker and hit a "butter cut"
- same for right-side with a draw.
- lay back in front of bunkers
- etc.




Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2016, 02:02:51 PM »
Most good players I know like them.  So, its a question of do you give the customer what they want, or deliberately not give aiming devices to be a hero on Golf Club Atlas?  Or split the difference, and design aiming bunkers in, but every once in a while, don't go the WYSIWYG route, and make it the worst target ever just to keep them on their toes? 

I have nothing against them in general, since they are usually very aesthetic too, and can often be used just beyond the normal landing zones to pinch the target for the really long hitters.  I just have to fight a tendency to use them every time out because they make a hole look comfortable.


Jeff,


Not a hard question. Always go for being a hero on Golf Club Atlas!


Those "good players" you mentioned. Forget them. They are not that good.
Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2016, 02:21:39 PM »
8)


 A recent  post about tees got me off on a tangent relative to aiming. Sometimes you pick a tree in the distance or a faraway bunker, it's a good practice . However ?


Is it kosher to have aids or even worse aides that enable you to aim better? 


Lastly , why would the USGA , R & A , and tours allow it to continue?


Simple,
Just have your caddie line you up ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


The death of forecaddies at the club level
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Eric Hammerbacher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 03:14:57 PM »
I know that Oakmont removed their aiming posts in preparation for the US Open, so I would think the USGA is not a fan of them for tournaments.  Is this what you meant in your original question?
"All it takes, in truth, for a golfer to attain his happiness is a fence rail to throw his coat on, and a target somewhere over the rise." -John Updike 1994

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 12:38:54 AM »
 :'(


When it's simply a feature the architect chooses to use , I'm ok with it . It shouldn't be overdone .


When it's a stripe on a ball or club I'm against it. As for your caddy lining you up from behind , verboten !

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 06:16:09 AM »
Archie,how about aiming rocks on blind tee shots?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 08:31:06 AM »
 ???




Jeff as to aiming rocks on blind holes , I don't have a strong opinion. I guess being indigenous to the locale would make them more seemly. Bunkers , trees , flagpoles that serve the purpose are fine. Many weren't planned , yet helpthe player.  Part of the strategy of the game is to find keys to help you play better , certainly taking dead aim is one of the ways to play well.


What I'm strongly against is caddies lining up players, even if they walk away pre-shot .This needs to be done on the practice tee as a learned skill.  It flies in the face of rulings against Johnny Millers caddy shielding and coaching him and the laying of clubs along the line of play. Similarly the stripe on the ball bothers me , yet seems to be intrinsic to play at this point in time at all levels of play . I'd love to see it go, though the ball manufacturers would surely cry foul. 








Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2016, 08:44:17 AM »
I always liked the barber poles at 150.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2016, 09:03:26 AM »
Archie,how about aiming rocks on blind tee shots?


Not sure about those, but the best way I have seen to make blind shots acceptable is just a little notch, or valley on basically the correct line of play, or at least center line of play, and the player who knows can aim right or left.


I guess the bigger debate is brought up by Ian - Is it right, wrong, or situation-ally right to make golfers "comfortable" on the tee shot, whether framing or aiming.  I agree with him it absolutely peaked around the time when tour pros started taking over design.  On the other hand, for the most part, MacKenzie set up some pretty attractive and comfortable looking tee shots with his scattered bunkers, etc., so its not all a modern invention.


In general, I don't mind making a tee shot comfortable and attractive.  It would seem uncomfortable ones would drive all but a few players who understand it away from the course.  Or, put another way, I agree good players clamor for it, but wonder if average players just know they like certain tee shots, without knowing exactly why?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2016, 02:09:29 PM »
On the other hand, for the most part, MacKenzie set up some pretty attractive and comfortable looking tee shots with his scattered bunkers, etc., so its not all a modern invention.



Jeff:


Dr. MacKenzie built all those bunkers with the purpose of making distances difficult to distinguish, using the principles of camouflage.  He did, often, build features that would look more difficult than they really were, but that's a long way away from building aiming bunkers.


I've always sided with Ian, against the idea of aiming bunkers.  Mr. Dye told me he hated them so I was well trained, but more importantly, they were never a feature of older designs. 


One thing I learned from my year overseas was that if there was a big natural hazard in the landscape, it was natural for the hole to play around it.  The idea that big bunkers on the outside of a hole "turn the dogleg" is completely at odds with human nature, in my view.  If you see a bunker, you should be thinking about trying to hit over it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2016, 08:59:19 PM »
Archie,

Hate the idea on principal.
Golf design should be about making decisions and trying to execute on that line ... not about pampering the player.

I consider aiming points part of "Comfort Architecture" a concept of the 70's, 80's and 90's
It's the main reason why those golf courses are dramatically over bunkered and expensive to maintain.


I'm not a huge fan, but one or two don't rankle me.  Although, the saving bunker probably has more use on rugged terrain.  The bunkers I absolutely detest are those next to water.  That is generally not a good place for a saving bunker and they nearly always look terrible. I have seen a few which mimic a beach pretty well and in that instance its okay because of the thrill of being on the beach when you escape the water...cool opportunity for a recovery for the ages. 


All in all, I am generally quite suspicious of courses which have more than about 40-60 bunkers...depending. It really irks me when folks say the placement of bunkers is great when there are 100 or 150 of the things...its damn near impossible for them not to be well placed even of they dominate the recovery options.


Ciao   
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 07:24:53 AM »
 8) :P




Lets answer Jim Sullivan's question as to where this was headed from the start . I realized after reading some posts that I like some design features that give you a hint of where to hit it, including "aiming rocks" . Over time players find an aiming point naturally, such as a particular hole in the trees on the 13 th at Pine Valley.


So for me it's fine to have a couple of crutches that lead the player the right way . Or not tempt the player to hit into a blind slope that throws the ball into an unplayable position. Rectangular "classic"  tees as alignment necessities don't float my boat, but they don't upset me greatly. Which brings me to my real problem .

Totally unequivocally against aiming devices on the equipment , whether it be the cheater line on golf balls , painted or marked up, or tees with stripes to guarantee the height of the ball is correct. All these practices are
akin to using an aiming stick on your second shot . Why any of the above are allowed is beyond me.The topper is the practice , mostly on the LPGA Tour , of having your caddy stand behind you and line you up . It's really bad.


Thinking back , Johnny Miller might have won a bunch more if they hadn't legislated against Andy Martinez coaching tactics.  Why the change I ask you ?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 12:09:36 AM by archie_struthers »

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 07:33:47 PM »
One thing I learned from my year overseas was that if there was a big natural hazard in the landscape, it was natural for the hole to play around it.  The idea that big bunkers on the outside of a hole "turn the dogleg" is completely at odds with human nature, in my view.  If you see a bunker, you should be thinking about trying to hit over it.


This surprises me a bit. I would think there is value in a bunker placed along the far edge of the dogleg - its proficiency in confounding the tee ball hit erroneously through the bend. Turning the dogleg may be an unintended consequence of its true intent.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 09:03:11 PM »
John,

More often than not, "through a dogleg" leaves you with poor position and additional distance to cover.
That often leads to the next miss and compounding of errors.
Really that's enough ...

I find the bunkers on the outside often keep the player in better position by collecting and stopping shots.
There so damned well conditioned and firm that they don't hurt the better player much unless deep.
The architects who like them, don't tend to make them deep, therefore they become completely redundant strategically.
Its eye candy and nothing more.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 12:14:50 AM »
 8) 8)




Well said Ian !  Unfortunately it got me thinking again about the fourteenth at Philly CC where I'm quite sure I could  convince one of my favorite architects , William Flynn , to remove the bunker on the inside elbow.


It's bad for a multitude of reasons including the ones you elucidated .  I'm just not ready to have a private discussion with Mr Flynn yet , as I have a lot more to learn here first .


Rave on , boys.

Joe Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 02:27:31 AM »
Hi,

As a sometime caddie I have to object to the objection about having your caddie aim you. :)


Speaking of being a caddie, I have to say that a good part of the job at the highest level is finding a target for your player to look at, which I usually tried to be as specific as possible about. That doesn’t necessarily mean actually lining them up, but just simply finding something in the landscape. Financially, it’s in the caddie’s best interest for that something to be as unobtrusive as possible: if the player can just tell, that’s one less thing to get paid for. But that gets back, I think, to a more general idea: should golf courses be immediately readable? Or should they reveal themselves over time, after many rereadings? I’d say the popular answer on this site would be the latter. It would also be mine: the most enjoyable places are ones that require a bit of memorization, so to speak. It’s exactly like rereading a favorite book: “oh, this is chapter seven, so I’d better be prepared for the freight train to arrive at the crossing …” or whatever. The analogy isn’t exact of course—that’s why they’re analogies—but it seems to me that it’s similar enough.

Is this helpful or interesting? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2016, 07:48:28 AM »
Joe,

Those points are interesting to consider, for sure.

And, you indirectly raise the other issue that all courses are not the same.  I have no doubt private clubs can and should be the slower reveal type courses, and would be more likely to have caddies to assist, not to mention repeated playing experiences.  By the same token regional mid level resorts and upscale publics, where the typical public player may play once a year for variety, doesn't know the course, and probably will never pick up on the subtly, may or may not benefit from either aiming points and no aiming points. 

Speed of play and fun golf are still issues here, and every little bit helps.  Is it technically great architecture IF you are designing for top level players?  Maybe not.  But, even top level players like the comfort of aiming points (and I have heard it from a guy usually ranked among the top10-20 golfers of all time as something he likes).

So, the question to me is do you give the customer/golfer what they want, and what the Owner may need (as a contributor somewhat to the bottom line, even if very small) or find some esoteric reason not to?  The reasoning given here is that somehow, we know what's best for, or seemingly think players have it "too easy" when we all struggle with the game.  I am not sure at all we can quantify the architectural benefit to the player of making them uncomfortable on the tee, when they prefer to be comfortable.  Is golf a game, or is golf a battle of some sort?

I do agree with Pete that IF you want to make it more difficult for the top player, you take out aim points, a reason why his lake edges are always pretty straight to make it harder to pick a line.  And, a reason I don't usually like target bunkers on the far side of cape holes either.  As Ian says, play away on a Cape, and more distance and rough is usually enough of a penalty.  It's just that I question if every shot should be designed to be harder?  Even Mac, Bobby Jones, and others wrote that the purpose of hazards was to encourage players to make a shot, not make it harder.

Also agree that if you place a bunker past the LZ, maybe you ought to consider its depth for the better player, who because of distance and strength, would be playing a shorter iron out.  Of course, you also have to consider that the poor player who hits it on his muffed second then hits the green in 4 instead of 3, which goes back to the speed of play issue, slowing down the slowest.

Long post, but the short answer, as always, is, "it depends on what is important to any particular design."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2016, 08:29:49 AM »
Jeff


While I am not against all aiming bunkers, I do think there shouldn't be enough bunkers on most courses to justify the expense of aiming bunkers.  For the sake of variety, expense and interest, archies need to find other crutches and let go of bunkers. 


I have long said that archies should justify each feature on a course.  When the same justification appears more than a handful of times they should rethink that feature. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2016, 08:54:36 AM »
Sean,

Agreed on all counts.  I think Ross wrote it was easy to over bunker a course, and in the boom years, it was never easier!

Actually, for pure typical budget reasons, the average SF of bunkers on my designs has gone down from 90-100K SF to 50-75K, between the boom and now.  I use fewer bunkers and make them smaller, too (helps cost with liners now almost standard, but more than that, many 60-90's design have the bunkers too visible and dominant in relation to the main target, the green)

I don't miss that sand visually, and the variety of features like grass bunkers, chocolate drop mounds, fw chipping areas (something I have always used, early in my career and now, with the boom and ratings driven period in between using them less) make for a greater variety of temptations, recovery shots, etc.

And, I actually go through that justification process as I detail out the design.  If a sand bunker doesn't serve many functions well, I try not to use it.  Unfortunately, sometimes that long fw bunker just beyond the LZ does serve many functions, it looks good, it pinches the fw for the long hitter, setting up some strategy, it turns and frames the hole, etc.  If the first or tenth, also looks great from the clubhouse.

Somewhere in my writing, I also agree with you on variety of fw bunker patterns.  I identified something like 20 basic bunker/hazard patterns for fairways and wonder why so many courses have just one pattern - a single bunker at the LZ or nearby straddling the side of the fw? 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 08:56:29 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2016, 10:40:38 AM »
 ::) ::)


Joe , appreciate your response as a looper.


Totally  against the caddy lining up the player except for the blind shot where he can walk in front , show the aim point and walk away.  Standing behind and telling the player when they are set up correctly should be verboten , and confined to sessions on the range. At some point alignment is an acquired skill and should be rewarded .


I'm all for understanding the course and indicating where to hit it or land it. A good caddy will eventually be singled out and renumerated for this knowledge.  I know it was responsible for me getting good jobs at four different clubs. However , I'm totally against any lining up of the player and even equipment that provides this service. But you knew that already!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aiming devices, tees , trees and others
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2016, 12:10:42 PM »
While not possessing a particularly strong opinion either way I will relay my experience from playing our 18th hole yesterday.

For two decades a lone, relatively small, cactus stood at the corner of the right fairway bunker which cannot be seen from the tee and sits just above the beach on this 430 yard dogleg right. It never occurred to me how reassuring that cactus was in terms of defining the right side. Well, the cactus finally succumbed to the effects of multiple hurricanes and is no longer there. Yesterday, as I prepared to hit a tee shot I have hit hundreds of times, I struggled to pick an exact line without the cactus. Now, it was not an aiming point/device as suggested in the title of this topic but certainly held defining characteristics in terms of the limits of the playable areas on the right side. Admittedly the hole looks more natural and far more aesthetically pleasing without the cactus - incredible a smallish cactus could present that prominently on such a hole. I was honestly dumbfounded that I perceived such a huge change due to the absence of a small bit of vegetation.

And as fate would have it my ball found its way into the bunker a mere 10 feet or so from where the cactus use to stand.

Do I want the cactus back?  No, the hole is more beautiful. Yes, the catcus standing proudly along the surf punding coast was somehow majestic and apparently helped me aim correctly. Summation... I really do not know.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 11:01:08 AM by Greg Tallman »