For a GCA website we do very little in analyzing individual holes

[Jason Thurman]

Josh, you might be right. I think the other issue working against it is the bunker to the left of it, and the way it curls in behind. There's not enough room to go left obviously, but there's also not much room to go over it without ending up in the left trap. For me, the real joy of a centerline hazard is having the option to carry it. That's just not a very good option on this hole.


Then again, I like that it's the rare short par 4 where a player can't just bash a driver toward the green and then claim that it's a work of architectural brilliance because he made birdie. I like a short hole that presents only uncomfortable options on the tee shot, provided that there's plenty of room to execute at least one of them. I think this hole provides it.

[Greg Chambers]

Jason,


Don't get me wrong...I'm a huge fan of center hazards, when they're used to add strategy to the hole.  In my opinion, this particular center hazard actually detracts from the strategy of the hole...it's basically directing you away from the preferred angle of attack, without providing any benefit to taking it on.  It's a misplaced hazard, and really has no business being there.

[Jason Topp]

It appears from the book Pebble Beach: The Official Golf History (online on Google Books) that Sandy Tatum was responsible for getting the course ready for the 1972 US Open.  If the bunker was added in the 60's, it makes sense it would have been added in connection with that project.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,


I, for one, appreciate a thread devoted to golf holes themselves, and understand the reason to pick a well known one.  I will let the others pick at the flaws, which of course, can be found in any thread, if you want to.


As to the hole, if the diagram is right, we can all agree there are a few rectangular tees.


My only contribution is that the most memorable feature of that hole, to me, was the bunker left of the green, and the little cape of grass that came down, and makes a hard turn along the line of play. It was one of those features that struck me as unique enough to use somewhere along the way.


Now, that comes from my playing(s) of the course before the Palmer redo, but it looks as if they generally kept that same bunker shape. The entire bunker looks enlarged, though, and one of the charms of that bunker was just how narrow each side of that turf was.


Not sure what it says about me, but they do say good golfers look at shots, and architects look at features, and I am definitely in group no. 2 there.

[George Pazin]

2)  bunker at 240 in the left-center of the fairway isn't really strategic, with no room to the left of it, so it forces you toward the cliff

[NOTE: I haven't played Pebble, just walked it twice.]


But doesn't your comment imply it IS strategic? The closer you get to it, the better the angle on the approach? Is there literally no room left of it, or just not a reasonable amount that someone would actively choose? We're talking about a hazard within reach with a long iron for better players. I'm not even a better player but I can hit mine with some degree of accuracy. Maybe one would hit a 3-5 iron in between the two bunkers?


I've always thought the best way to introduce strategy into any hole is to take the ideal landing spot - based on green and green orientation - and drop a bunker right there. It's almost a Max Baer "line of charm" type of thinking.


And to Josh Tarble and Greg Chambers, I'd simply say, that's precisely the point...

[Tim_Weiman]

2)  bunker at 240 in the left-center of the fairway isn't really strategic, with no room to the left of it, so it forces you toward the cliff

[NOTE: I haven't played Pebble, just walked it twice.]


But doesn't your comment imply it IS strategic? The closer you get to it, the better the angle on the approach? Is there literally no room left of it, or just not a reasonable amount that someone would actively choose? We're talking about a hazard within reach with a long iron for better players. I'm not even a better player but I can hit mine with some degree of accuracy. Maybe one would hit a 3-5 iron in between the two bunkers?


I've always thought the best way to introduce strategy into any hole is to take the ideal landing spot - based on green and green orientation - and drop a bunker right there. It's almost a Max Baer "line of charm" type of thinking.


And to Josh Tarble and Greg Chambers, I'd simply say, that's precisely the point...

George,


Based on my recollection, I couldn't call it strategic. The small, well bunkered green combined with trouble lurking on the right just made me think "hit the fairway.....as close to the center as possible".

[Tom_Doak]

2)  bunker at 240 in the left-center of the fairway isn't really strategic, with no room to the left of it, so it forces you toward the cliff

[NOTE: I haven't played Pebble, just walked it twice.]


But doesn't your comment imply it IS strategic? The closer you get to it, the better the angle on the approach? Is there literally no room left of it, or just not a reasonable amount that someone would actively choose? We're talking about a hazard within reach with a long iron for better players. I'm not even a better player but I can hit mine with some degree of accuracy. Maybe one would hit a 3-5 iron in between the two bunkers?


I've always thought the best way to introduce strategy into any hole is to take the ideal landing spot - based on green and green orientation - and drop a bunker right there. It's almost a Max Baer "line of charm" type of thinking.

Hi George!  I don't think the bunker in question is that strategic because I don't think there's enough room for anyone to try to play left of it.  You still have the choice of laying up short of it, or trying to go past on the right, but I doubt many people would flirt with getting right up close to it, as I don't see a big advantage to that over being a bit short. 


To me, if that bunker were gone, you'd see more guys try to smash it up close to the green, and maybe leave themselves a 40-yard bunker shot from that long left bunker, with the contours at the edge of the green taking their toll, too.  I suppose the lay-up shot would be easier ... I think that's why the bunker was installed, but that was back in the days when not many guys drove the ball prodigiously and most would rather lay up to 100 yards.


P.S.  The golfer was Max Behr.  The old boxer Max Baer was not known for his charm. 

[AChao]

I think the hole would be more interesting if it were shorter and that left fairway bunker weren't there.

[Josh Bills]

The last time I played Pebble was 2008.  Here is what I remember from the tee shot and frankly from the tees we played, other than you know the ocean is there, it really was not visually intimidating because you can't really see it! 


There is enough fairway out there and I can't imagine for the life of me why you would attempt anything left.  Thus, I surmise it is purely a penal bunker to punish you for not taking on the ocean.  I see no other value for the small fairway bunker or the bunkers on the left.  The best angle is from the middle or right.  As it is a short hole, it may not be an unreasonable ask to hit the fairway.  The best part of this hole is the view of 6 and 7 in my opinion.  The green itself is severely sloped and not an easy two putt if you are above the hole.  My brother's shot went long and like Bill McBride's and it was never found.  That cliff is closer than it looks.

[Bill_McBride]

Usually he brings up holes at Pine Valley, NGLA or Augusta, so at least this example is a bit more egalitarian.
Anybody with the admittedly exorbitant green fee can play Pebble Beach.

Bill,

So now, as JAKAB says, like a whining douche bag, you're complaining about the hole I chose for the par 4 analysis ? ?


Why no complaints about the par 3's at Pacific Dunes ? ?
Not exactly a cheap destination.

You indicated that you played Pebble Beach, didn't you ?

You and that other moron, FBD, are now being critical of the hole I chose.

Why don't you start more interesting, constructive threads relating to specific hole analysis.

Instead, you chose to derail/hijack a potentially interesting thread.   That, as JAKAB says, is a douche bag move.

The introduction of the center fairway bunker after 1968 is a significant topic on its own.

I know it's hard, but try, as JAKAB says, not to be a douche bag, it'll be a refreshing change for you.

Have you been tested for excessive pomposity lately?   FBD and I were doing a bit of harmless slagging but you seem to have misplaced your sense of humor. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's funny: on the average GCA darling course, a bunker right where you would otherwise want to hit your shot is considered "brilliant." At Pebble Beach, it's "ludicrous."


That's your opinion, an opinion not embraced by many

If you stay short of the centerline bunker, you have an area 55 yards wide and 30 yards deep for a target.


Only in a purely linear sense.

You forgot to add margins for error into the equation.

If you hit into either bunker you can't hit the green.
In fact, you might not get out of the bunker, so that 30 yards shrinks to 20 yards or less.   

It's 170 to clear the cross bunker from the middle of the middle tee, about 200 to reach the center bunker.

How many greens, only 20 yards deep do you hit from 185 yards ?

While the fairway measures 55 yards wide at the 185 yard mark, it plays considerably narrower.

That fairway is sloped from high left to low right, reducing the effective width to about 40 yards.   And if the golfer fades/slices the ball, which the majority of golfers do, the drive plays even narrower


Most of us would call a target like that "too big" if it was the green on a 180 yard par 3.


Why is it too penal on this hole?


For several reasons.

1.  You have to carry a difficult cross  bunker
2.   You have to stay short of a more difficult center fairwaybunker
3.   You only have a target 20 yards in depth from 185, leaving you a 10 yard margin
4.   There's a large water hazard flanking the right side of the hole
5.   The fairway slopes toward the water hazard
6.   The green is a small narrow sloped green
7.   The green is surrounded by bunkers
8.   There's a steep cliff next to the green
9.    There's a steep cliff behind the green
10.  The air varies from heavy to fog
11.  The hole is uphill
12.  The fairway is sloped, providing side hill/uphill lies

Hope that helps.


The resulting approach is only about 120 yards.


Only 120 ?

How about your lie ?

How about the small narrow green surrounded by bunkers with steep cliffs to the immediate right and behind the green ?

Have you ever played the hole ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The last time I played Pebble was 2008. 
 
Here is what I remember from the tee shot and frankly from the tees we played, other than you know the ocean is there,
 
it really was not visually intimidating because you can't really see it! 
 
The "ocean" isn't the hazard, the cliff is the hazard and it's clearly visible from the tee, just past the fence.
 
If you don't think this visual is intimidating you need to see an Oculist.



There is enough fairway out there and I can't imagine for the life of me why you would attempt anything left.
 
You go left to avoid the cliff.
And, you go left because the fairway slopes to the right, toward the cliff.
 
I have a number of tenets that I adhere to when playing golf.
One of them is: A dry ball is a good ball"
I'd rather be in a bunker than in a hazard, thus the golfer compensates for the right side hazard that's fed by the fairway that slopes into it.
 
Thus, I surmise it is purely a penal bunker to punish you for not taking on the ocean.
 
Agreed
 
I see no other value for the small fairway bunker or the bunkers on the left. 
 
Without the bunker on the left the DZ loses definition and the requirement for accuracy off the tee.
 
The best angle is from the middle or right. 
 
As it is a short hole, it may not be an unreasonable ask to hit the fairway.
 
It's not unreasonable, but, it remains challenging as the consquence for failure is severe. 
 
The best part of this hole is the view of 6 and 7 in my opinion. 
 
YIKES.
 
Don't share that opinion with anyone.
Uh Oh, it's too late.
 
That's grounds for being banned from GCA.com
 
The green itself is severely sloped and not an easy two putt if you are above the hole. 
 
Agreed
 
My brother's shot went long and like Bill McBride's and it was never found. 
That cliff is closer than it looks.
 
Yes, it is.
How far was your brother from the green on his approach ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you been tested for excessive pomposity lately?   
 
FBD and I were doing a bit of harmless slagging but you seem to have misplaced your sense of humor.
 
Or maybe, in your attempts to derail/hijack this thread your "humor" was difficult to detect.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rather than rely on the schematic, can someone post the "Google Earth" aerial.
 
Thanks
 
 

[DMoriarty]

Better or worse?  More strategic, or less? 

[Jason Thurman]

It's funny: on the average GCA darling course, a bunker right where you would otherwise want to hit your shot is considered "brilliant." At Pebble Beach, it's "ludicrous."


That's your opinion, an opinion not embraced by many

If you stay short of the centerline bunker, you have an area 55 yards wide and 30 yards deep for a target.


Only in a purely linear sense.

You forgot to add margins for error into the equation.

If you hit into either bunker you can't hit the green.
In fact, you might not get out of the bunker, so that 30 yards shrinks to 20 yards or less.   

It's 170 to clear the cross bunker from the middle of the middle tee, about 200 to reach the center bunker.

How many greens, only 20 yards deep do you hit from 185 yards ?

While the fairway measures 55 yards wide at the 185 yard mark, it plays considerably narrower.

That fairway is sloped from high left to low right, reducing the effective width to about 40 yards.   And if the golfer fades/slices the ball, which the majority of golfers do, the drive plays even narrower


Most of us would call a target like that "too big" if it was the green on a 180 yard par 3.


Why is it too penal on this hole?


For several reasons.

1.  You have to carry a difficult cross  bunker
2.   You have to stay short of a more difficult center fairwaybunker
3.   You only have a target 20 yards in depth from 185, leaving you a 10 yard margin
4.   There's a large water hazard flanking the right side of the hole
5.   The fairway slopes toward the water hazard
6.   The green is a small narrow sloped green
7.   The green is surrounded by bunkers
8.   There's a steep cliff next to the green
9.    There's a steep cliff behind the green
10.  The air varies from heavy to fog
11.  The hole is uphill
12.  The fairway is sloped, providing side hill/uphill lies

Hope that helps.


The resulting approach is only about 120 yards.


Only 120 ?

How about your lie ?

How about the small narrow green surrounded by bunkers with steep cliffs to the immediate right and behind the green ?

Have you ever played the hole ?

Did you have a stroke while reading my post? Your reply is so nonsensical that I don't even know how to address it.

[Rob Collins]

The 4th has always been one of my favorites on that course. It's one that can be easily birdied, but a poorly placed tee shot can lead to disaster. I like the strategy of the hole in that you have to flirt with the right side in order to have the opportunity to take it up the central axis of the green. If you make the mistake of pulling it left, the skinny green & the raised lip of the bunker combine to give you serious problems (along with the fact that there is a bunker & a cliff on the other side...no margin for error).

[John Kirk]

I played the course recently.

My playing partner, who is a great player, thinks the play is right at, or just right of, the left center bunker with less than a driver.  He played a 3-wood; I only carry 5- and 7-wood so I hit 5-wood.  From there it's 105-120 yards uphill to a small green.  The course plays very long, and the approach is about one club uphill.

That little cove is so beautiful.  For a player of my ability, you need to make pars early, because the holes are more difficult later in the round.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's funny: on the average GCA darling course, a bunker right where you would otherwise want to hit your shot is considered "brilliant." At Pebble Beach, it's "ludicrous."


That's your opinion, an opinion not embraced by many

If you stay short of the centerline bunker, you have an area 55 yards wide and 30 yards deep for a target.


Only in a purely linear sense.

You forgot to add margins for error into the equation.

If you hit into either bunker you can't hit the green.
In fact, you might not get out of the bunker, so that 30 yards shrinks to 20 yards or less.   

It's 170 to clear the cross bunker from the middle of the middle tee, about 200 to reach the center bunker.

How many greens, only 20 yards deep do you hit from 185 yards ?

While the fairway measures 55 yards wide at the 185 yard mark, it plays considerably narrower.

That fairway is sloped from high left to low right, reducing the effective width to about 40 yards.   And if the golfer fades/slices the ball, which the majority of golfers do, the drive plays even narrower


Most of us would call a target like that "too big" if it was the green on a 180 yard par 3.


Why is it too penal on this hole?


For several reasons.

1.  You have to carry a difficult cross  bunker
2.   You have to stay short of a more difficult center fairwaybunker
3.   You only have a target 20 yards in depth from 185, leaving you a 10 yard margin
4.   There's a large water hazard flanking the right side of the hole
5.   The fairway slopes toward the water hazard
6.   The green is a small narrow sloped green
7.   The green is surrounded by bunkers
8.   There's a steep cliff next to the green
9.    There's a steep cliff behind the green
10.  The air varies from heavy to fog
11.  The hole is uphill
12.  The fairway is sloped, providing side hill/uphill lies

Hope that helps.


The resulting approach is only about 120 yards.


Only 120 ?

How about your lie ?

How about the small narrow green surrounded by bunkers with steep cliffs to the immediate right and behind the green ?

Have you ever played the hole ?

Did you have a stroke while reading my post?
Your reply is so nonsensical that I don't even know how to address it.
 
Why don't you tell us, item by item, how my reply is "nonsensical".

[John Kirk]

...just made a mistake.