[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,
 
Look at every tee at Pine Valley.
 
Are the great majority "free form" or rectangular with rounded corners ?
 
Let me know if you want to go hole by hole.

 
Jon, typically, when you haven't played a course, or know so little about it, you're the one trying to derail a thread.

Or are they free form with straight sides? 

Anthony, this is just Mr. Mucci's attempt at a 'thread f*#k

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,
 
Look at every tee at Pine Valley.
 
Are the great majority "free form" or rectangular with rounded corners ?
 
Let me know if you want to go hole by hole.

Or are they free form with straight sides? 

Anthony, this is just Mr. Mucci's attempt at a 'thread f*#k

Jon

Anthony,
 
No back peddling.
Here's my original statement in reply # 16.

GCGC, WFW, Seminole, ANGC, MRCC, Baltusrol, Pine Valley and I believe Merion all have rectangular tees, could you or anyone else tell us how they are not in harmony with their surroundings ?


Back peddling now. Won't comment that he misspoke about Merion and "rewording" what was said about PV.

The tees at PV defiantly do not appear to be retangular with corners.
 
What do you mean that the "do not appear to be rectangular with corners" ?
When was the last time you played there ?
Did you see my front nine hole by hole assessment ?
 
Not square either. More like tees pads, maybe.
 
And you assessment is based upon playing there or looking at ground level photos ?  ?  ?

[mike_beene]

About the first thing Coore did at our place was square the tees.Not sure if that was their historical look but it sure looks better.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony,
 
Look at every tee at Pine Valley.
 
Are the great majority "free form" or rectangular with rounded corners ?
 
Let me know if you want to go hole by hole.

Or are they free form with straight sides? 

Anthony, this is just Mr. Mucci's attempt at a 'thread f*#k

Jon

Anthony,
 
No back peddling.
Here's my original statement in reply # 16.

GCGC, WFW, Seminole, ANGC, MRCC, Baltusrol, Pine Valley and I believe Merion all have rectangular tees, could you or anyone else tell us how they are not in harmony with their surroundings ?


Back peddling now. Won't comment that he misspoke about Merion and "rewording" what was said about PV.

The tees at PV defiantly do not appear to be retangular with corners.
 
What do you mean that the "do not appear to be rectangular with corners" ?
When was the last time you played there ?
Did you see my front nine hole by hole assessment ?
 
Not square either. More like tees pads, maybe.
 
And you assessment is based upon playing there or looking at ground level photos ?  ?  ?

Patrick,
  All the photos below are taken from Google Earth, which you politely suggested to me. This will ensure that we are looking at the same thing. I even took the liberty to circle the tees to make sure we are really looking at the same teeing ground.

The first several are from Pine Valley and then I took the time to show the irregular shapes of Merion's tees. Not sure how those could ever be mistaken for "rectangular." Pine Tree's tees, though 'runway" by term, are rectangular.
  Rectangle-a rectangle is any quadrilateral with four right angles. It can also be defined as an equiangular quadrilateral, since equiangular means that all of its angles are equal (360°/4 = 90°). It can also be defined as a parallelogram containing a right angle. A rectangle with four sides of equal length is a square. The term oblong is occasionally used to refer to a non-square rectangle.









Merion:

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat never admits he's wrong, although he often is, just like all of us.


Maybe we should debate whether Pat's head is shaped round or more of a block.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,
 
With regard to Merion, in my initial reply, I added the caveat, "I believe" as I wasn't as familiar with Merion as I am with the other courses cited.
 
I also stated that the tee boxes were rectangular and added that the corners were rounded for maintainance/mowing purposes.
 
What you haven't addressed is the term "free form"
"Free Form" tees are NOT geometric in nature.
 
"Free form" tees do not have their front and back, and flanking sides parallel to one another, which is the case at PV.
 
Rounding the corners for maintainance/mowing doesn't transition a tee from rectangular to "free form"
 
Let's go hole by hole on the tee boxes at PV.
I've already stated that # 1 is free form.
 
Let's go to # 2, rectangular or free form ?

Dave Schmidt & Jeff Brauer,
 
Feel free to chime in.
# 2, rectangular or free form ?
 
Jeff Brauer,
 
If you say I"m wrong, with your track record, chances are 99.9 % that I'm right.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,


Of those photos above, only the second is what I would call a rounded rectangle. I say that because I could create it in CAD with my "Rounded Rectangle" Tool, by setting the radius settings to "symmetrical" and setting the raidus of the curve to 1/2 of rectangle width.  (Its more common to set the rounded corners to minimum turning radius of the tee mower, typically 8-10 foot radius)


All the others would fit my definition of rounded, but I think of free form more as the Larry Packard Tees at Innisbrook with really exaggerated shapes, not just rounded corners and some wobble in the edge.


There is also such a thing, IMHO, as a "squarish" tee, with square corners but polygon shape, like a wedge shape, or one side square and one side angled.


Obviously, I have thought about these definitions, even wrote an old article about possible tee shapes...but overall, its probably not thumping chests over a definition of tee shape.


I am guessing when you mention my track record of being wrong, you refer to Merion again, but I'm still waiting for you to provide those phone records of all those CBM calls to Hugh Wilson you allege to have burned up the phone lines.........LOL. My biggest mistake here (like many folks) involve endless back and forth with you on subjects where you just won't admit you are wrong, even when you clearly are!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,
 
OK, you admit that the 2d tee at PV is a rectangle versus a free form tee.
 
Now, let's go to the three tee's on the third hole.
 
Rectangular or free form ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Well, I said rounded rectangle, which is a thing... Just to be clear, I was referring only to the smaller tee, which has two straight and parallel sides, and two end curves, so it is a rounded rectangle.  The larger tee on two doesn't qualify as a rectangle in my book.

I don't see any rectangles in the third photo.  The smaller tees are clearly circular (although not perfectly so) and the larger tee does have one straight edge and three curved ones. 

So, if you need to get technical for fun discussion purposes, how do you decide when it morphs from a rectangle?  For ease, I think most would argue a rectangle has to have all straight and parallel sides and no round corners because....that's what rectangles are by definition. 

Only in Mucci's world would we be spending time debating what a rectangle is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff & Anthony,


Is it your position that if a tee has two 90 degree angles, one 91 degree angle and one 89 degree angle that it's NOT a rectangular tee, that it's a "free form" tee ?


Jeff,


if you don't think that the three tees on the third hole are rectangular, but circular, you've lost whatever objectivity and credibility you ever had.


To try to help you out, go to the 2007 version of "historic aerials.com" for a clearer, fall view.


Rounding the corners for mowing/maintenance does not alter the general shape of the tee.  When the opposite sides of a tee are parallel to one another, that's a rectangular tee, NOT a free form tee.


And even when the opposite sides of a tee aren't exactly parallel to one another, that's a rectangular tee, not a "free form" tee.


As to the decision regarding "morphing" there's probably not a tee in existence with four 90 degree corners, but you can recognize the general rectangular shape if you've got a brain in your head, which obviously, some don't.

If you and Anthony think that maintenance crews carry T-squares or square rulers when mowing tees, you need your heads examined.


If you weren't being deliberately obtuse you'd know the difference between a "free form" tee and a rectangular tee.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I'm already falling down on my New Year's Resolution to avoid pointless arguments with you......

While I wouldn't argue 91 degrees, etc., because mowers aren't perfect, at some point,  a rectangle is not a rectangle.  Where that exact definition changes, who knows, it probably varies in the eye of the beholder.  Not worth an argument.

By my count, we are even at traded insults, and its best to stop now!

Cheers.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff & Anthony,


Is it your position that if a tee has two 90 degree angles, one 91 degree angle and one 89 degree angle that it's NOT a rectangular tee, that it's a "free form" tee ?


Jeff,


if you don't think that the three tees on the third hole are rectangular, but circular, you've lost whatever objectivity and credibility you ever had.


To try to help you out, go to the 2007 version of "historic aerials.com" for a clearer, fall view.


Rounding the corners for mowing/maintenance does not alter the general shape of the tee.  When the opposite sides of a tee are parallel to one another, that's a rectangular tee, NOT a free form tee.


And even when the opposite sides of a tee aren't exactly parallel to one another, that's a rectangular tee, not a "free form" tee.


As to the decision regarding "morphing" there's probably not a tee in existence with four 90 degree corners, but you can recognize the general rectangular shape if you've got a brain in your head, which obviously, some don't.

If you and Anthony think that maintenance crews carry T-squares or square rulers when mowing tees, you need your heads examined.


If you weren't being deliberately obtuse you'd know the difference between a "free form" tee and a rectangular tee.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can show that the tees at PV are not square, rectangular nor are they circular. Therefore they are free form, formed to fit their surrounds. The pictures don't lie. It's pretty easy to see.
  And while maintenance staff don't carry T Squares, many square tees now have rebar hammered into their corners to always find the 90* corner. And at Riviera, ( and other CA courses) there is material on the edges to ensure a straight line a square corner. This keeps the Kikuya out, too. So, I don't think I'd have to get my head examined if I saw a staff member with a t bar for tee corners.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

Haven't seen iron pins at the corner, but yes, for some, square means square and they don't work unless nearly perfect.

Circular isn't the right word for most of the tees in those photos, I agree.  As I said, some are Square-ish, and some are Roundish, but few are rectangles or circles.  I still associate free form with something more dramatically shaped, but not enough to argue about it!

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

here is a rectangle according to Mr. Mucci   ' ' Most people would think it is a circle but not Patrick as opposite sides are parallel. Indeed a circle is in fact the ultimate rectangle in the strange world that he inhabits as it has infinite parallel sides.

You just have to accept that there is no point in trying to have a reasoned conversation with him as he is either too deluded to understand or one of the world's top shelf tossers. Either way, a waste of time and space.

Jon

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