Would you still play if....

[Richard Hetzel]

Most likely not, as I CAN hit it further than 150 yards. I know plenty of people who can easily crank the ball out from the tee with 290 yard carries with ease. ALL of these guys NEVER break 80 because they can't putt. Maybe the powers that be should use tournament specific golf balls? It's an argument that never seems to go away.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So if a ball roll-back ever occurs, doesn't it need to be a really, really radical roll-back?


Maybe not to the extent of the 150 yd drive I have somewhat tongue in cheek been mentioning above, but maybe to a level around 50%-60% of current ball performance?
 
NO, that's far too radical

As to folks still playing with what would then an illegal ball, that might well happen for a while in a 'golf with a few mates' scenario, maybe until their supply of 'old/illegal' balls ran out, but as soon as a player tries it in weekly medal or stableford etc their 'mates' will snitch on them immediately.

As to how far folks really hit the ball, hit a bunch of shots with your usual make/type of ball in conjunction with one of these top-notch Trackman type machines etc. You're carry distance is very unlikely to be what you presently think it is.
 
Agreed

I like Adrian's 6' 6" Scandinavian example. Makes me recall standing at the back of the range at a European Tour event many, many years ago when Anders Forsbrand (who isn't 6'-6") walked onto the range with a metal headed driver with a green coloured shaft which he then proceeded to use to knock balls over the maintenance sheds that were at the end of the range with a high net protecting the front of them. No one else was even hitting into the net. Amazing at the time but I got bored of watching this after a while so went to watch various other Pro's practicing their chipping, pitching, bunker play and putting, which was far more interesting and ultimately more profitable/£ to me in the long run


As to stretching, yoga exercises etc, couldn't agree more.

One thing coming through is that ego seems to be be a pretty powerful (sic!) factor in golf.
 
That's why Lee Trevino stated that the older you get, the better you used to be.

[Jon Wiggett]

Golfs problem lies in two problems.

One is that it takes too long to play 18 holes. Back in the 80's sub 3 hour rounds for a threesome were the norm now there are those even on this site who think sub 4 hour ones are a thing of myth. secondly it is too expensive.

Two again in the 80's the average player used equipment costing about £300 for the lot (clubs, bag, shoes, etc) and they would last for at least a decade. Membership cost in the low hundreds.  Now it costs thousands for equipment and nearly that for membership.

Those saying shortening the ball would reduce enjoyment for most are plainly wrong. The VAST majority of players have profited very little from the longer ball and how do they explain the numbers of older, much shorter hitting players who are still playing?

Having to lengthen and widen courses for the longer and more wayward hitting few coupled with the demand to keep inland courses which were never meant to be open through winter open, have driven costs up.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon


But shortening drives to 150 yards?  Are there many courses well under 5000 yards that would be good and fun to play?  Are there many sub 5000 yard courses? 


Good drives for me are 230ish and 5 irons 170ish...so I would expect often times on par 4s of 400 yards to be hitting a wood.  I don't know about you, but I find my course from the daily tees at just under 6500 to be plenty long (too long actually) with modern equipment. It gets plenty of fairway wood play from (I think too much actually) me and on any given winter day there is a handful of par 4s I can't reach in two.  Hell, the ladies tees at under 5800 yards is a good test of golf as a par 69.  I really don't know how most women cope on those tees...they must find it a brutal experience in the wind...even with par at 74.   


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Good drives for me are 230ish and 5 irons 170ish...so I would expect often times on par 4s of 400 yards to be hitting a wood.  I don't know about you, but I find my course from the daily tees at just under 6500 to be plenty long (too long actually) with modern equipment. It gets plenty of fairway wood play from (I think too much actually) me and on any given winter day there is a handful of par 4s I can't reach in two. 

How refreshing to see a golfer being honest about his distances!

I've played with Sean several times and would say he's a pretty big hitter - certainly longer than average for his age and handicap. Yet the figures he quotes above are almost certainly accurate.

I bet Sean could hit a balata ball with 30 year old clubs very nearly the same distances.  Advances in equipment technology have affected the elite players disproportionately. Any reversal would do the same.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon


But shortening drives to 150 yards?  Are there many courses well under 5000 yards that would be good and fun to play?  Are there many sub 5000 yard courses? 

Ciao

Sean,

where do or have I ever mentioned 150 yards? I don't, so please if you are going to counter what I write stick to what I do write and not go of on some Mucci-esk style of rubbishing by bringing up a totally irrelevant point in the hope it will somehow make what I said invalid. It is this sort of thing that ruins so many threads on this site and it surprises me that someone like you is actually doing this.

What I am saying would mean that your 230 yard drive might end up being 220-225 yards long. What I suggested would effect the longer players most and the average player very little hence the gist of what I wrote in an earlier reply was almost exactly what you wrote.

So please stick to the facts,

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

But shortening drives to 150 yards?  Are there many courses well under 5000 yards that would be good and fun to play?  Are there many sub 5000 yard courses? 

Ciao

Sean,

where do or have I ever mentioned 150 yards? I don't, so please if you are going to counter what I write stick to what I do write and not go of on some Mucci-esk style of rubbishing by bringing up a totally irrelevant point in the hope it will somehow make what I said invalid. It is this sort of thing that ruins so many threads on this site and it surprises me that someone like you is actually doing this.

What I am saying would mean that your 230 yard drive might end up being 220-225 yards long. What I suggested would effect the longer players most and the average player very little hence the gist of what I wrote in an earlier reply was almost exactly what you wrote.

So please stick to the facts,

Jon

Jon

Well, 150 yards was the basis of the thread and you didn't mention another number (that I recall) so I assumed you agreed...sorry. 

Bottom line...I don't want courses to play any longer for handicap players.  Most golfers find 5500-6500 enough distance.  If folks want to bifurcate thats fine with me.  But I don't see any point in a net increase of yardage for run of the mill players.  Length is one of the least interesting ways to make golf fun so why emphasize it more than now?

Duncan

When I think of so called average distance I try to incorporate all the bad hits, hits into wind and bad lies.  Most golfers think only of the good times and many will say a 400 yard hole can be reached with a 260 drive and a 140 8 or 9 iron.   Sure, thats true when weather and one's swing is working for you.  Some days or even some holes length is a cake walk, some days its a walk the plank.  There are reasons people have handicaps     There is no doubt for me that given the trend of narrow fairways and/or horrible rough, 6500 yards is pushing the edge of what is tolerable when we all things are considered.  I have always said one of the easiest ways to mitigate the difficulty of length is to add width.  Width not only adds strategic flavour, but also essentially makes courses shorter because of fewer bad lies.   

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Some very interesting points have been made. Thank you.


Imagine playing say Painswick or Formby-Ladies or Church Stretton or the Annesley at RCD or any course currently in the 4,500-5,200 yardage range with clubs and balls that wouldn't carry more than 150 yds.


There'd still be a whole bunch of challenge and all the other reasons (except pounding a long ball tee shot) would still be there....fun, fresh air, exercise, friendship, competition, self challenge, even getting away for a while from the other half and the kids!


Would folk (essentially men) really give this up just because they can no longer hit a long ball tee ball? What else will they do, go shopping with the other half!?


Generally the bigger the playing surface the greater the cost. Cut back on the area of the playing surface and the cost will be less. The game ought to become more affordable and 18-holes, or however many you want to play, won't take as long.


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some very interesting points have been made. Thank you.


Imagine playing say Painswick or Formby-Ladies or Church Stretton or the Annesley at RCD or any course currently in the 4,500-5,200 yardage range with clubs and balls that wouldn't carry more than 150 yds.


There'd still be a whole bunch of challenge and all the other reasons (except pounding a long ball tee shot) would still be there....fun, fresh air, exercise, friendship, competition, self challenge, even getting away for a while from the other half and the kids!


Would folk (essentially men) really give this up just because they can no longer hit a long ball tee ball? What else will they do, go shopping with the other half!?


Generally the bigger the playing surface the greater the cost. Cut back on the area of the playing surface and the cost will be less. The game ought to become more affordable and 18-holes, or however many you want to play, won't take as long.


Atb

You probably could not play Painswick, few holes you need to decent wack to get it across the 14 and 16. As a junior 14 was toughie, the quarry was full of pine trees years ago with a gap. Anyway on that note I am off for my first game of the year just to remind myself how shite I am.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I am someone who now only hits the ball 150 yards. Twenty years ago I hit it 250. That makes a huge difference. I cannot reach the two par 3s which are played over deep valleys, I cannot reach any par 4 in two shots, the par 5s are at least four shots away. I get very cheesed off. I think this will be my last season of playing golf.

[jeffwarne]

Yes.
When grown men switch from baseball to softball the scale changes by 33 %.
If tennis courts were doubled due to hot rackets (the way golf has doubled in scale in the past hundred 50 years)
and then they
changed back people would play.

The one essential caveat would have to be that it was all relative.
I.e. if I hit it 150 Bubba hits it 180 and Sean A hits it -140 .Cant have everybody at the same distance or we've lost a key element.Power vs. others.
A baseball hit 500 feet is a prodigious blast and is relevant because very few  do it.


While 150 yard drives might be radical for a change with current courses, it would definitely save time as no Walkbacks and less real estate and less ball searching would definitely save time.

I fell in love with golf when I was hitting it 150 yards and no doubt will go out that way.

Besides in 10 years the manufactures would have us back where we are now

[Peter Pallotta]

This reminds me of an older man I saw on the range a couple of years ago. He looked to be in his early 70s. I was about 30 yards away and stopped to watch him.

He had an iron in his hand, it looked to be a 6. He swung slower than I did, but he swung with remarkable smoothness and ease and with a lovely tempo, and as I kept watching I could see that every swing was exactly like the one before.

And each shot he hit was also just like the one before: a high, soft draw that landed a little short of the 150 yard marker, and seemingly always right at the flag that was out there.

He must've once been, indeed, he still was, a very good player.  So after a few minutes, I went over to him. I introduced myself and said something like: "It's a pleasure watching you. Your tempo is just marvelous and your ball flight is excellent every time  -- I think I'm getting better at golf just by standing here!"

I could see he was surprised, and in fact I think I embarrassed him.  I don't know what he was thinking, but he looked down and quietly said (almost mumbled): "Centre of the club face. You want to hit it with the centre of the club face".

And then he made a motion that suggested he just wanted to get back to practicing, so I thanked him again and left him alone.

But I've always remembered it for a few reasons: 1) being able to hit a 6 iron 140-150 and straight means there is not a golf hole that man will ever play where he won't/can't be on the green and putting for par every single time, 2) whatever else I'm trying to do/work on with my swing, the number 1 thing I need to do is to hit the ball off the centre of the clubface, and 3) if you were once a good player with a sound swing, that swing won't abandon you, and so golf truly is a game you can play your whole life

Peter

   

[Bill_McBride]

I am someone who now only hits the ball 150 yards. Twenty years ago I hit it 250. That makes a huge difference. I cannot reach the two par 3s which are played over deep valleys, I cannot reach any par 4 in two shots, the par 5s are at least four shots away. I get very cheesed off. I think this will be my last season of playing golf.

Mark, just move up to the senior tees. That's what I've done at 74 as I just can't hit tee shots beyond the 180-190 range.  I hope to keep playing and have a couple of good trips planned this year.   One thing I've learned is that nobody else cares how crappy you are playing as long as you keep up. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

The trouble is Bill, we don't have Senior tees in the UK. The forward  red tees are universally called the Ladies tees, and no self respecting man is ever going to play from them.

There is a move to change things,  and that can only be good. Tees should be non gender specific, and the starting point must be to change the colour coding.  If the forward tees became white and the back tees red, I suspect it would only take a couple of generations for it to become acceptable for old guys to play from the front!

[Thomas Dai]

Quite right Duncan. In addition, there are some amateur/club/county playing ladies and girls for whom the front/reds aren't a challenge yet they aren't allowed to play off any of the 'mens' tees positioned further back. Daft.
atb

[Sean_A]

We have a set of blue tees at my club which drastically alter the course.  I often play at least a handful of those tees when having friendly games....it cuts the yardage down as much as 200 yards from 6500.  The main reason is to save walk backs, but also to negate winter wind. Truth be told, I think we could try to put in more tees as its easy to create unobtrusive tees in more forward positions. I really don't know how women cope with the 5800 yards. Some links with lots of dunes are very lucky in that it is no hardship to create lots of tees and they don't have to effect the aesthetics if well placed.  Sure, its not perfect because now the course is designed around the daily tees so people playing well forward have long walks, but at least its something. 


Okay, we have the 9 hole course with tees set at a far more reasonable 5100 for women and older folks if one plays the same tees twice. While it does have some excellent holes and it is challenging, it is no match for the Championship in terms of interest. 
[size=78%] [/size]



Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Of course I would still play. And, I imagine even more people would play than currently do. Why have balls that fly off into oblivion, thereby requiring searching and slow golf? Why have balls that allow the physically gifted to make others feel like they don't belong on the golf course?


Equipment advances are a pox on the game.

[Bill_McBride]

The trouble is Bill, we don't have Senior tees in the UK. The forward  red tees are universally called the Ladies tees, and no self respecting man is ever going to play from them.

There is a move to change things,  and that can only be good. Tees should be non gender specific, and the starting point must be to change the colour coding.  If the forward tees became white and the back tees red, I suspect it would only take a couple of generations for it to become acceptable for old guys to play from the front!

Some of our courses take it too far with five sets of tees and some combo hybrid tees.  The good thing is that our otherwise shaky handicap system charges me two handicap strokes if I play gold tees versus an opponent playing from longer tees.   Well worth the investment!

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

a lot of the courses in Scotland have a set of blue tees set well forward of the reds from which anyone can play.

Jon

[Steve Lang]

   Thomas D. fyi,


Is hitting a long ball one of the reasons you play? 
[/size]
[/size]   NO, but it is thrilling hitting a ball 270-300 yards, even if it is on a hard baked fairway.[/size]Would the game become very boring to you very quickly? 


   I like to have options, so maybe, but probably not.... Would you be able to mentally tolerate needing to hit at least a driver and then a fairway metal to reach a green less than 300 yds away?
   No problem.  I could use 3 PW's and 1 putter too.If you'd give up if you couldn't hit a driver more than 150 yds what yardage would still keep you playing?   been playing since 9 years old, not sure why I'd stop unless i died or something.  THere's nothing like being out in nature, watching small balls fly through the air.

Just curious.[/color]

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,

a lot of the courses in Scotland have a set of blue tees set well forward of the reds from which anyone can play.

Jon

A lot of courses down here have those tees too, Jon.  The trouble is that no-one really uses them apart from young juniors and lady beginners.

We suffer in the UK with an obsession with competitive play and a blind adherence to the convention that everyone must play from the same tees when competing against each other. Perversely, this appears to be so particularly amongst older players!

I was speaking the other day to a leading member of our Senior Section. He mentioned that they were raising funds to pay for the materials required to culvert a small stream which crosses our 11th fairway 150 yards in front of the back tees - and 120 yards in front of the daily tees. This is because many of the Seniors are finding the carry over the stream impossible, particularly on a Saturday when all play is from the Competition tee.

I raised the initiatives being pushed by England Golf regarding tees and suggested that we may be heading towards some kind of "slope" system whereby players could choose which tee to play from and that this would be reflected in a handicap adjustment.

My friend was clearly appalled by the very idea, and maintained that everyone in the same competition must play from the same tee.

Clearly, in his mind, expensive alterations to the course to accommodate short hitting seniors are preferable to allowing them to play from a more suitable tee!

I like this chap immensely, but am at a loss to understand his attitude, particularly when it comes from one of the very guys who might benefit by having their golfing careers prolonged.

I can't help feeling that when I reach my dotage I would be more than happy to play from the forward (red) tees in exchange for a handicap reduction of a few shots. This would surely allow me to remain competitive by dint of my canny hybrid and short iron play - not to mention putting!

Is there any intrinsic reason why we couldn't have a system whereby all courses had a Standard Scratch Score assessed for men playing the red tees, and that the difference between this and the SSS for the white tees was deducted from the handicap of those opting to play from the reds?

For example, at Reddish Vale the SSS from the white tees is 70, from the yellow (daily) tees 68, and I would guess from the red tees for men it would be around 66.

So an old guy with a handicap assessed on his performance from the white tees of 24 would be able to play from the red tees with a handicap of 20 - or the yellow tees with 22.

All it would require is a slight alteration to the CONGU computer system and for each player upon entering their score after a competition to indicate which set of tees he (or she) played from.

Too simple? 

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

I suppose there are two possible solutions here and that is to either have seniors play from a forward tee on this hole and also in a category of their own as do the ladies or to scrap the back tee on this hole and play from the normal tee for all players (does the 30 yards really make a difference I wonder).

As for piping the stream, I doubt very much there is a chance in hell of being allowed to culvert an open watercourse in such a situation these days.

On another note, I am very much against slope systems or any other idea dreamt up to make the game fairer as they will never really work and make things more complicated plus more expensive which is a bad thing.  Scratch rating, buffer zone and variable SS on the day do the trick for me.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

  Thomas D. fyi,
Is hitting a long ball one of the reasons you play? 

   NO, but it is thrilling hitting a ball 270-300 yards, even if it is on a hard baked fairway.Would the game become very boring to you very quickly? 
   I like to have options, so maybe, but probably not.... Would you be able to mentally tolerate needing to hit at least a driver and then a fairway metal to reach a green less than 300 yds away?
   No problem.  I could use 3 PW's and 1 putter too.If you'd give up if you couldn't hit a driver more than 150 yds what yardage would still keep you playing?   been playing since 9 years old, not sure why I'd stop unless i died or something.  THere's nothing like being out in nature, watching small balls fly through the air.
Just curious.

Steve,


Good stuff.


For me there's not much, if any, thrill in hitting a ball 270-300, nor 250 nor 200 (nor even 150) on any kind of surface. Not fussed about the distance I personnally hit shots at all. The quality of the strike though, and the consistancy, flight and the direction etc, now that's a different matter.


Like you I've been playing since I was a youngster, younger than 9 for me, so I well recall the days of hitting driver, fairway wood, fairway wood, fairway wood, fairway wood and then maybe an iron to what was termed a par-5 (men's par-5's as not permitted to use the ladies tees!). Now that could get boring.


I've also taken to playing quite a bit with hickories so limited distance (and less loft on the shorter clubs) has again reared it's head.


Great closing line btw, "There's nothing like being out in nature, watching small balls fly through the air."


It has long seemed distinctly odd to me that money is spent on hitting the ball further and further and then to compensate more money is spent on making courses longer and longer.


As I mentioned earlier, the bigger the playing surface the larger the cost and the longer the time taken to play so if 'we', as a collective of golfers, are serious about wanting to make the game more affordable and quicker to play then radically cutting back the distance the ball can go, not just cutting back a bit but cutting it back radically, would seem well worthy of consideration.


Atb

[Garland Bayley]

I would posit that if you went to a course in the Cayman Islands and played it with the Cayman ball, and did not enjoy it just as much as you do regulation golf, you may be less than a full fledged golf fanatic.

[jeffwarne]

I would posit that if you went to a course in the Cayman Islands and played it with the Cayman ball, and did not enjoy it just as much as you do regulation golf, you may be less than a full fledged golf fanatic.

Would be fun to try.
I think one could play with more freedom as less fear of a stray long ball, especially if corridors were nearly maintained.
Would be fun to play a match with a senior, jr. or woman using conventional equipment.
though it would be difficult to decide which size golfboard to use......