[Pat Burke]

I've been able to play tournaments on both sawgrass and PGA west.
To me, there are a lot of visual similarities to greensites, and individual holes that look similar from "above"
At ground level, they offer a lot of differences though (to me)
Different elevations, and I felt a lot of difference in the internal contours of the greens.
I had the feeling I could use the green countours in Floraida to feed balls to many difficult hole locations, IF I could control the distance and shape of my approach.  There are some nast hole locations at tpc sawgrass that can be played safely with a shaped shot using those contours.
At PGA west, a lot of difficult hole locations just have to be played away from, or (balls out) taken on. 
Both course reward a well controlled approach, and punish a miscalculated or missed one.  But imo at least, they were supposed to punish wayward right?


Playingbthe course was quite different to me, and I liked them both, the first time I played them fwiw

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Both courses were designed to host PGAT events. Essentially. PGA West is a west coast version of Sawgrass. I've played both and found PGA West slightly more difficult for the recreational golfer. Did not lose a ball on either's  island green.

[Andrew Buck]

Wow, what a perfect illustration of how time impacts mowing patterns to shrink greens.


When Lee Trevino aced 17 in 1987 the green basically went to the rocks.  Now there is a circle with almost 10 feet between green and rocks.

[Matt_Cohn]

Wow, what a perfect illustration of how time impacts mowing patterns to shrink greens.


When Lee Trevino aced 17 in 1987 the green basically went to the rocks.  Now there is a circle with almost 10 feet between green and rocks.

I noticed that too. Doubly weird since they overseed every year so it wouldn't be that hard to change the mowing lines if they wanted to.

[Kalen Braley]

I figured they did it to keep more balls in play.  If it has 10 feet of longer stuff, especially at the back, it'll help keep more balls in play, and less drops/unplayable lies...

[Don Mahaffey]

Wow, what a perfect illustration of how time impacts mowing patterns to shrink greens.


When Lee Trevino aced 17 in 1987 the green basically went to the rocks.  Now there is a circle with almost 10 feet between green and rocks.

It’s not time. 
It’s why architects should be involved in changes to their golf courses

[Anthony_Nysse]

Wow, what a perfect illustration of how time impacts mowing patterns to shrink greens.


When Lee Trevino aced 17 in 1987 the green basically went to the rocks.  Now there is a circle with almost 10 feet between green and rocks.

It’s not time. 
It’s why architects should be involved in changes to their golf courses

Don,
  I cannot say for sure if TPC Stadium has ever been regressed or renovated since it's opening. Seems like Desert courses don't renovated nearly as often as Florida courses, and it's probably because the courses are buried in overseed during their high times.
  That being said, if my suspicion is right, years and years of overseeding and aggressive bermudagrass growth in the summer could EASILY result in a green getting smaller from general maintenance. Our greens were built in 1986 and regressed in 2005 (bent to tifeagle) to where the current pad was at the time. When we renovated in 2016, some of this greens were 12"+ smaller than their original pad. I believe that a lot of tifdwarf and 328 is still being used in the desert for ease of overseeding.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:  it's possible the change is entirely accidental, but time doesn't sit on the mowers - people do.


I've noticed the courses where my own greens have shrunk noticeably are the ones that suffered severe financial crises:  Quail Crossing, St Andrews Beach and Stone Eagle.  I doubt it's a coincidence that the greens shrunk when they had a banker making calls on the maintenance budget.  PGA West went through the same thing in the S&L crisis.


Or, it could've been the Tour.  They like small greens, and they hate bad bounces.

[Jerry Kluger]

I was a member at Avenel for a number of years beginning about 1988 and I have never played a more difficult course for the average golfer.  I haven't played it since the renovation but I understand it is even more difficult.  It is on a really good piece of property across the street from Congressional and unfortunately the PGA Tour wanted a stadium course which included better viewing for spectators so fairways were raised and it made many of the holes play significantly longer.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony:  it's possible the change is entirely accidental, but time doesn't sit on the mowers - people do.


I've noticed the courses where my own greens have shrunk noticeably are the ones that suffered severe financial crises:  Quail Crossing, St Andrews Beach and Stone Eagle.  I doubt it's a coincidence that the greens shrunk when they had a banker making calls on the maintenance budget.  PGA West went through the same thing in the S&L crisis.


Or, it could've been the Tour.  They like small greens, and they hate bad bounces.

Yes, people sit on mowers and walk behind them. Time grows bermudagrass, though too....

I'm having trouble posting the pic, but its really surprising how much it's come in.

[Andrew Buck]

Tony:  it's possible the change is entirely accidental, but time doesn't sit on the mowers - people do.


I've noticed the courses where my own greens have shrunk noticeably are the ones that suffered severe financial crises:  Quail Crossing, St Andrews Beach and Stone Eagle.  I doubt it's a coincidence that the greens shrunk when they had a banker making calls on the maintenance budget.  PGA West went through the same thing in the S&L crisis.


Or, it could've been the Tour.  They like small greens, and they hate bad bounces.

While I have no doubt that finances have had an impact at some places, and possibly with your work, I'd suggest that has happened at 80% of the golf courses in the US out of a combination of naivety, accident and member indifference. 

Superintendents get "called to the mat" mostly for turf conditions and asthetics.  There are very few members/golfers that are going to notice, much less question the "shrinking green"

[Kalen Braley]

Didn't want to start a new thread, so figured I'd ask this here.

Given the 17th green at PGA West looks like a smaller target than TPC Sawgrass, and looks to plays longer, do the players (Pros) have the same amount of fear and loathing when they play it? This tournament is certainly nowhere near as high profile as The Players, but I rarely hear anything about this in the telecast.  Or is this a case of NBC introducing the drama by bringing it up almost non-stop during their coverage at Sawgrass?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have wondered why it does get the same buildup as well. The 17th at PGA West is longer and smaller. [/size]PGA West: 3,765 TPC Sawgrass: 3,912. The first time I played them I was more nervous at Sawgrass than West. I think it is because of the importance of the tournament that Sawgrass wins in the publicity dept.[/color]

[Tom_Doak]

I have wondered why it does get the same buildup as well. The 17th at PGA West is longer and smaller. PGA West: 3,765 TPC Sawgrass: 3,912. The first time I played them I was more nervous at Sawgrass than West. I think it is because of the importance of the tournament that Sawgrass wins in the publicity dept.

I am curious where you got those figures?


I used the polygon feature on Google Earth and the green at Sawgrass measured 4800 sf -- 5000 when you include the bunker.  The green at PGA West measured a little under 4000 sf, but the island itself [outside of the bunker] is 5000.


I think there are a couple of key differences between the holes:


a.  Sawgrass is windier, and that can be scary when you have to land the ball in a certain spot.
b.  The ball will roll right off the back of the green at Sawgrass into the water . . . not at PGA West.
c.  The tee at PGA West is elevated, so you get a better look at how much space you've got to land the ball.  You don't get as good a look at what you are doing at Sawgrass.

[Jeff Schley]

I think a difference is the wind at TPC Sawgrass is significantly more prevalent than the PGA West version.  I haven’t played Sawgrass but we all see it every year for the pros and hte wind plays a big factor. I have played the Stadium course probably 10 x’s over the years and unless you play the very back elevated tee I don’t recall the wind being much of a factor.  It is a stunning hole from the back as the elevation adds to the beauty.

[JohnVDB]

Or, it could've been the Tour.  They like small greens, and they hate bad bounces.

I think it is this. The Tour staff member in charge of setup works closely with the superintendent during the advance week to get all the mow lines where they want them.

[Mark_Fine]

Really?  Sold out?


Soooo many architects build very similar holes ALL THE TIME.  If you get out and see and play enough courses you will realize this. Most build holes from course to course that are fundamentally the same, they just tweak the cosmetics. Very few people realize this because very few golfers play that many different courses to notice.  Furthermore, if you build a great golf course, why not build similar ones to it (if you can) so more golfers who are scattered all over creation get to experience such wonderful designs.  That is not selling out. 


I have played The Stadium Course dozens of times over the years and TPC at Sawgrass five times.  In my opinion they play very differently.  The trees for one at Sawgrass create all kinds of varying wind conditions, angles and back drops.  The Stadium Course has none of that.  I think they are both fabulous golf courses.  What amazes me is how the pros light up PGA West.  61 today, really??  Amazing how the game is changing. 

[Matt Kardash]

Really?  Sold out?


Soooo many architects build very similar holes ALL THE TIME.  If you get out and see and play enough courses you will realize this. Most build holes from course to course that are fundamentally the same, they just tweak the cosmetics. Very few people realize this because very few golfers play that many different courses to notice.  Furthermore, if you build a great golf course, why not build similar ones to it (if you can) so more golfers who are scattered all over creation get to experience such wonderful designs.  That is not selling out. 


I have played The Stadium Course dozens of times over the years and TPC at Sawgrass five times.  In my opinion they play very differently.  The trees for one at Sawgrass create all kinds of varying wind conditions, angles and back drops.  The Stadium Course has none of that.  I think they are both fabulous golf courses.  What amazes me is how the pros light up PGA West.  61 today, really??  Amazing how the game is changing.

I think Pete Dye (who is one of my favourites btw) was basically building original after original course up until PGA West. To me, you can pinpoint this as being the moment where he started to repeat himself. By no means do I think he did not good original work after this point (PDGC, Kiawah, Blackwolf Run River, Whistling Straits are obviously all great).

You can convince yourself that PGA West is not like Sawgrass, but on the back-nine alone at PGA West there are 3 holes that are basically identical to Sawgrass. The holes even have the same numbers. I will let you figure out which those are.
On another note, I really think PGA West is due for a renovation. The bunkers and mowing lines can really use some work.

[Tom_Doak]

I think Pete Dye (who is one of my favourites btw) was basically building original after original course up until PGA West. To me, you can pinpoint this as being the moment where he started to repeat himself. By no means do I think he did not good original work after this point (PDGC, Kiawah, Blackwolf Run River, Whistling Straits are obviously all great).

You can convince yourself that PGA West is not like Sawgrass, but on the back-nine alone at PGA West there are 3 holes that are basically identical to Sawgrass. The holes even have the same numbers. I will let you figure out which those are.
On another note, I really think PGA West is due for a renovation. The bunkers and mowing lines can really use some work.

Matt:


We exchanged notes on the circumstances behind this design three years ago, on the first page of this thread.


I would guess that I'm as big a fan of Mr. Dye as a person and as an artist as anyone else who posts here.  And I agree with you, that there are a lot of things at the Stadium course that are repeats from the TPC at Sawgrass, and even from several of his prior courses.


The reason for that was that both clients asked him to do the same thing -- to design his idea of a perfect golf course, on land that was very different, but in both cases had no ground features to give any direction to the design.


Mr. Dye's vision of the perfect golf course was pretty well honed by then, after 25 years of building golf courses.  When he sat down with me in Savannah to explain everything he wanted me to draw in January of 1984, I recognized most of the ideas right away, because they were almost exactly what he had explained to Mark Mulvoy from Sports Illustrated in an interview from 1971 about his courses at John's Island, FL.  I understood that this would make the course very similar to Sawgrass, and did my best [with Pete's permission] to throw in some other ideas to try and give the course a different feel, but in particular Pete's ideas on an "ideal finish" were very well developed.


That was when I realized that I didn't want to have such a strong vision of what an ideal course would be, because it could wind up being counterproductive.


I don't think you would feel that the courses were so similar, had they not built the island green 17th.  It was not part of the original plan, but the client asked Pete to reconsider.  I think if it had been any other client, Pete would have threatened to walk away from the project over that -- after all, he was the one who taught me that I should do that.  But he did not do that with Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler, for whom he had already built 8-10 golf courses.  He had a lot of respect for them. 


Incidentally, IIRC, Pete's design fee for PGA West was $200,000, which translates to $500,000 today.  Pete didn't design courses for the money.

[Matt_Cohn]

I was happy to hear that they’re expanding all of the greens back to their original shapes and sizes this summer. I doubt they’ll use too many of those hole locations 10 feet from sand or water in future years given the Pro-Am format, but at least the greens will be restored. Of course, to make the course play something like it used to, they’d have to add tees to make it 8000 yards. And they’d have to put all those bushes back in so that pros’ errant shots actually get penalized, but they can’t do that given all the resort play. Oh well.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have wondered why it does get the same buildup as well. The 17th at PGA West is longer and smaller. PGA West: 3,765 TPC Sawgrass: 3,912. The first time I played them I was more nervous at Sawgrass than West. I think it is because of the importance of the tournament that Sawgrass wins in the publicity dept.

I am curious where you got those figures?


I used the polygon feature on Google Earth and the green at Sawgrass measured 4800 sf -- 5000 when you include the bunker.  The green at PGA West measured a little under 4000 sf, but the island itself [outside of the bunker] is 5000.


I think there are a couple of key differences between the holes:


a.  Sawgrass is windier, and that can be scary when you have to land the ball in a certain spot.
b.  The ball will roll right off the back of the green at Sawgrass into the water . . . not at PGA West.
c.  The tee at PGA West is elevated, so you get a better look at how much space you've got to land the ball.  You don't get as good a look at what you are doing at Sawgrass.

PGA TOUR stats it looks like.
https://twitter.com/pgatour/status/689955695773536263?lang=en

[Mark Kiely]

Unrelated to what's been discussed above, my thought while watching today is I'd like to see No. 14 lengthened about 30-40 yards to make these guys have to negotiate the fairway bunker again. Seems like they can all carry it 270 or whatever and don't have to worry about it at all.


Also happy to hear about the green restoration.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Or, it could've been the Tour.  They like small greens, and they hate bad bounces.

I think it is this. The Tour staff member in charge of setup works closely with the superintendent during the advance week to get all the mow lines where they want them.

The PGA Tour staff isn't changing green/collar interface a week before the event for multiple reasons, 1 being its a different grass.


The original grassing lines of TPC has been allowed to move over the years. 419 collars encroach into (I assume) tifdwarf. PGA West renovated the Nicklaus course last year & reclaimed over 50,000ft2. Id assume that is 25-33% of their entire putting surfaces.

[Roman Schwarz]

(c) was my immediate thought when I read the initial question.  At PGA West, you get a good look at the green and some soothing mountains in the background.  At Sawgrass, all you see is water, wooden bulkhead, and, if you squint hard enough, a flag that you're trying to hit at.  It makes the green depth looks much harder than it is.


On the overall comparison, I played PGA West first and thought it would be crazy for Sawgrass to be so much "better" if it's the exact same course, with 16 at PGA West being the tiebreaker.  The bunker there is waaaaay more interesting than just another water hazard at Sawgrass.


However....Sawgrass felt like a much more complete course 1-15.  Plus, the 3-section green on Sawgrass's 17th is way more interesting.  Hitting it on the green is only half the battle.  Sawgrass wins, but not just because it's the original.

I have wondered why it does get the same buildup as well. The 17th at PGA West is longer and smaller. PGA West: 3,765 TPC Sawgrass: 3,912. The first time I played them I was more nervous at Sawgrass than West. I think it is because of the importance of the tournament that Sawgrass wins in the publicity dept.

I am curious where you got those figures?


I used the polygon feature on Google Earth and the green at Sawgrass measured 4800 sf -- 5000 when you include the bunker.  The green at PGA West measured a little under 4000 sf, but the island itself [outside of the bunker] is 5000.


I think there are a couple of key differences between the holes:


a.  Sawgrass is windier, and that can be scary when you have to land the ball in a certain spot.
b.  The ball will roll right off the back of the green at Sawgrass into the water . . . not at PGA West.
c.  The tee at PGA West is elevated, so you get a better look at how much space you've got to land the ball.  You don't get as good a look at what you are doing at Sawgrass.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
I am not arguing with you that there are some holes a both courses that are very similar or "templates", let's call them that.  What I am saying is most every architect has "templates" or favorite kinds of holes (call them what you want) and they adjust the cosmetics of the hole to make them appear a little different as they repeat them on different designs.  The 17th at both courses are obviously island greens but the look very different.  Ands Pete has used that 18th finishing hole on many of his golf courses - I just played one the other day - Heron Point at Sea Pines in SC.  It is basically the same "template" hole that he used at TPC Sawgrass and PGA West.  He loves that kind of cape hole and so be it. 


Nothing wrong as an architect with having a certain style or design preferences.  Again almost ALL do.  Think of it as like when you get dressed every day.  It is still you, but you change your clothing so you look a little different!

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