PGA West (stadium)

[Matt Kardash]

Matt,
I am not arguing with you that there are some holes a both courses that are very similar or "templates", let's call them that.  What I am saying is most every architect has "templates" or favorite kinds of holes (call them what you want) and they adjust the cosmetics of the hole to make them appear a little different as they repeat them on different designs.  The 17th at both courses are obviously island greens but the look very different.  Ands Pete has used that 18th finishing hole on many of his golf courses - I just played one the other day - Heron Point at Sea Pines in SC.  It is basically the same "template" hole that he used at TPC Sawgrass and PGA West.  He loves that kind of cape hole and so be it. 


Nothing wrong as an architect with having a certain style or design preferences.  Again almost ALL do.  Think of it as like when you get dressed every day.  It is still you, but you change your clothing so you look a little different!

Yes, most designers use templates. but I feel like Dye really cemented his templates starting at PGA West.
You said he did many cape 18th holes. But how many of them were built before PGA West that aren't TPC Sawgrass?I can tell you he built a ton in the following 20 years.
So, like I said, for the first 20 or 25 years of his career he was doing very original work, and it was at about this point in his career where he started not being as original. A lot of this has to do with the fact that starting in the mid 80s most of his properties were flat pieces of crap. Therefore, there was less room for originality. He fell back on the tried and tested templates he knew worked well.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Your thread has got me in all kinds of heat from people like Tom Doak     Be careful what you say about most architects using templates  Once again, I think most discussion here is focused around the Top 100 or even Top 300 courses so maybe with many of those course there much less template use but we forget about the other 35,000 golf courses out there.  Also, Pete Dye might beg to differ with you about a few of your comments.  Just because he used templates doesn't mean he got lazy over time or lost creativity.  Maybe we agree to disagree on that. 

[Matt Kardash]

Matt,
Your thread has got me in all kinds of heat from people like Tom Doak     Be careful what you say about most architects using templates  Once again, I think most discussion here is focused around the Top 100 or even Top 300 courses so maybe with many of those course there much less template use but we forget about the other 35,000 golf courses out there.  Also, Pete Dye might beg to differ with you about a few of your comments.  Just because he used templates doesn't mean he got lazy over time or lost creativity.  Maybe we agree to disagree on that. 

I am tight with Tom, I will tell them to keep his hounds at bay!  (full disclosure, I've never met him haha)
Well, I think we can agree that in general his courses from 1965 to 1985 were in general better than 1985 to 2005I see architecture just like any other art form. In general, an artist's best work is done in the first half of his career. No one cares about 1980s Paul McCartney or The Rollings Stones...Taxi Driver and Raging Bull will always been as Scorsese's great work, not some film from the 2000s. Every person only has a limited number of tricks up his sleeve. You can't keep going to the well and finding water.
I don't see any of this as being a negative. I just see it as the way things are. I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,
Your thread has got me in all kinds of heat from people like Tom Doak     Be careful what you say about most architects using templates  Once again, I think most discussion here is focused around the Top 100 or even Top 300 courses so maybe with many of those course there much less template use but we forget about the other 35,000 golf courses out there.  Also, Pete Dye might beg to differ with you about a few of your comments.  Just because he used templates doesn't mean he got lazy over time or lost creativity.  Maybe we agree to disagree on that. 

I am tight with Tom, I will tell them to keep his hounds at bay!  (full disclosure, I've never met him haha)
Well, I think we can agree that in general his courses from 1965 to 1985 were in general better than 1985 to 2005I see architecture just like any other art form. In general, an artist's best work is done in the first half of his career. No one cares about 1980s Paul McCartney or The Rollings Stones...Taxi Driver and Raging Bull will always been as Scorsese's great work, not some film from the 2000s. Every person only has a limited number of tricks up his sleeve. You can't keep going to the well and finding water.
I don't see any of this as being a negative. I just see it as the way things are. I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

Matt,


I met Tom more than 20 years ago during a get together at Crystal Downs back in the Traditionalgolf.com days before GCA. Tom was gracious enough to do a slide show for our small gathering.


Now I haven’t seen all of Tom’s work, but it wouldn’t surprise me if his best work is ahead. As I have written before (probably more than once), I don’t think there is a “Tom Doak golf course”. Instead, I think each course has its own character. For example, if you look Down Under, Barnbougle, Cape Kidnappers and St Andrews Beach are each their own.....nothing like each other, IMO. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen Tara Iti, but based on pictures, this course appears to also be its own.


I suspect this quality makes it possible for an architect to keep doing better work.

[Tom_Doak]

I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

How much money do you have, Matt?


If my career ended today, the first half would include Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, and Barnbougle.
The second half would include Ballyneal, Rock Creek and Tara Iti, but the supporting cast would be superior.


So I could just quit now, if your estate was enough to support me, and I wouldn't get bored.


I figure I will build a dozen more courses, so two of them will have to be as good as the first three plus Ballyneal.  That will be hard to do, but I've got a shot at it.

[Matt Kardash]

I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

How much money do you have, Matt?


If my career ended today, the first half would include Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, and Barnbougle.
The second half would include Ballyneal, Rock Creek and Tara Iti, but the supporting cast would be superior.


So I could just quit now, if your estate was enough to support me, and I wouldn't get bored.


I figure I will build a dozen more courses, so two of them will have to be as good as the first three plus Ballyneal.  That will be hard to do, but I've got a shot at it.

Tom, to be clear I basically assumed that you are more or less halfway thru your career, or maybe 60%. I am assuming you will go on until 80 years old designing courses. Obviously what I am saying only applies to a designer who lived long enough to design a significant number of courses, such as Pete Dye. My statement would not apply to Mike Stranz, for example.Therefore, to maybe be a little more nuanced, I would say there is another factor, such as number of courses designed. Someone can have a 40 year career and design 20 courses. Perhaps not enough courses to run out of ideas.Quentin Tarantino has a similar line of thinking. He says he wants to quit after directing 10 films so as to ensure that his oeuvre has a consistent quality to it. He finds it frustrating when so many directors have a poor tail-end of their career.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You don't realize how lucky you are.  On the other thread, Adrian said, "I am thinking in Europe we probably need "1" new course every three years to fill demand".  The U.S. probably doesn't need any but let's assume 5 new ones a year and maybe 5-10 more/yr in the rest of the world.  If you are going to build 12 more as you finish out your career that doesn't leave much for the rest of the architects.  You can see what some say this is truly is a dying profession for most. I am glad I am content doing what I am doing despite not getting much respect for it but I am ok with that.  Matt does make a good point.  Which golf architects saved their best work for last? I am not going to start that thread. Maybe Matt wants to take that one on 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
You don't realize how lucky you are.  On the other thread, Adrian said, "I am thinking in Europe we probably need "1" new course every three years to fill demand".  The U.S. probably doesn't need any but let's assume 5 new ones a year and maybe 5-10 more/yr in the rest of the world.  If you are going to build 12 more as you finish out your career that doesn't leave much for the rest of the architects.

Do you complain to Gil Hanse about this or just to me? 


I do realize how lucky I am, although it isn't entirely random luck.  We have contracts to do five new projects [though if history is true to form, one or two will never get built] and I've had calls about a half-dozen more in the past 2-3 months -- I guess the presence of a vaccine is leading developers to be optimistic again.  Unfortunately a lot of them are overseas, so I can't even go see if I want to do them right now.

[Tom_Doak]

I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

How much money do you have, Matt?


If my career ended today, the first half would include Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, and Barnbougle.
The second half would include Ballyneal, Rock Creek and Tara Iti, but the supporting cast would be superior.


So I could just quit now, if your estate was enough to support me, and I wouldn't get bored.


I figure I will build a dozen more courses, so two of them will have to be as good as the first three plus Ballyneal.  That will be hard to do, but I've got a shot at it.

Tom, to be clear I basically assumed that you are more or less halfway thru your career, or maybe 60%. I am assuming you will go on until 80 years old designing courses. Obviously what I am saying only applies to a designer who lived long enough to design a significant number of courses, such as Pete Dye. My statement would not apply to Mike Stranz, for example.Therefore, to maybe be a little more nuanced, I would say there is another factor, such as number of courses designed. Someone can have a 40 year career and design 20 courses. Perhaps not enough courses to run out of ideas.Quentin Tarantino has a similar line of thinking. He says he wants to quit after directing 10 films so as to ensure that his oeuvre has a consistent quality to it. He finds it frustrating when so many directors have a poor tail-end of their career.

Matt:


Your poor assumptions are one of the reasons I was willing to take the bet.  Like Bill Coore, I have never wanted to take on more than 2-3 courses per year and at that number I don't think our standard has been diluted.   You are right that other designers have done it differently and I've reacted accordingly.  Plus, my son has no interest in golf design so I'm not going to wind up taking credit for a bunch of courses that I really didn't do much on.


I doubt I will do more than a dozen additional courses before I am ready to fall back and just be a consultant to my former students, due to the economy and the toll it takes on my body to fly around internationally.  This past year has been a good rest!


But I still have plenty of ideas!  Just yesterday, in fact, I sent a note to a friend listing 6-8 concepts for courses I'd love to do before I pack it in.  Those are less likely to be the ones that surpass my earlier works in the rankings [just like The Loop is one of my favorites but not the highest ranked].  However, if St. Patrick's is as good as everyone seems to think, then I will only need to build one or maybe two more great courses in order to clean you out.  Maybe you should consider a settlement offer?

[Matt Kardash]

I would put all my money on the line and say the first half of Tom Doak's career will be viewed as superior than the second half. Tom of course would never want to think that this will be true, as any artist thinks his best work is still ahead of him. Tom, I am not trying to pick on you, please have pity on me. Help! 

How much money do you have, Matt?


If my career ended today, the first half would include Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, and Barnbougle.
The second half would include Ballyneal, Rock Creek and Tara Iti, but the supporting cast would be superior.


So I could just quit now, if your estate was enough to support me, and I wouldn't get bored.


I figure I will build a dozen more courses, so two of them will have to be as good as the first three plus Ballyneal.  That will be hard to do, but I've got a shot at it.

Tom, to be clear I basically assumed that you are more or less halfway thru your career, or maybe 60%. I am assuming you will go on until 80 years old designing courses. Obviously what I am saying only applies to a designer who lived long enough to design a significant number of courses, such as Pete Dye. My statement would not apply to Mike Stranz, for example.Therefore, to maybe be a little more nuanced, I would say there is another factor, such as number of courses designed. Someone can have a 40 year career and design 20 courses. Perhaps not enough courses to run out of ideas.Quentin Tarantino has a similar line of thinking. He says he wants to quit after directing 10 films so as to ensure that his oeuvre has a consistent quality to it. He finds it frustrating when so many directors have a poor tail-end of their career.

Matt:


Your poor assumptions are one of the reasons I was willing to take the bet.  Like Bill Coore, I have never wanted to take on more than 2-3 courses per year and at that number I don't think our standard has been diluted.   You are right that other designers have done it differently and I've reacted accordingly.  Plus, my son has no interest in golf design so I'm not going to wind up taking credit for a bunch of courses that I really didn't do much on.


I doubt I will do more than a dozen additional courses before I am ready to fall back and just be a consultant to my former students, due to the economy and the toll it takes on my body to fly around internationally.  This past year has been a good rest!


But I still have plenty of ideas!  Just yesterday, in fact, I sent a note to a friend listing 6-8 concepts for courses I'd love to do before I pack it in.  Those are less likely to be the ones that surpass my earlier works in the rankings [just like The Loop is one of my favorites but not the highest ranked].  However, if St. Patrick's is as good as everyone seems to think, then I will only need to build one or maybe two more great courses in order to clean you out.  Maybe you should consider a settlement offer?

If I lose I will pick up sticks on your final design, just as you did on your very first for Pete Dye 

[Tom_Doak]

If I lose I will pick up sticks on your final design, just as you did on your very first for Pete Dye 

I am not sure we will know when that is, so maybe you'd better start with the next one.

[Matt Kardash]

If I lose I will pick up sticks on your final design, just as you did on your very first for Pete Dye 

I am not sure we will know when that is, so maybe you'd better start with the next one.

Let me know, do you pay well to pick up sticks?