The Original 9-hole course at Van Cortlandt Design Attribution (Willie Dunn?)

[MCirba]

Cool pic Jim...thanks!

[Bret Lawrence]

Just as long as we can agree that that heavy smoke might be coming from Willie Dunn's big cigar of lies.


Sven

Sven:


I came across an article that may shed some light on Willie Dunn's less than perfect memory?


From the St. Louis Republic-July 14, 1901:



Bret

[MCirba]

Bret,

Thanks...I've seen similar articles referring to Dunn's various physical maladies that seemed to hint at some related mental health issues.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:


Helps explain the rather sudden drop off in his production, as well as the dubious nature of some of his quotes later on.  I have an article where he claims he taught Tom Bendelow how to play golf. 


Sven

[Brad Tufts]

Based on the VC course map Mike posted, it looks like the entire course was plotted in the area of the current #1, #2, #12, #13, and #14.  The old rail line is now the "Old Putnam Trail," and the Mosholu Expressway seems to follow the old route of Mosholu Ave.

I can't quite picture where Jim's photo may be course-wise...obviously somewhere along the tracks.

I played the modern VC a couple years ago and was pleasantly surprised, despite there only being a few noteworthy holes.  Didn't hurt that I made 6 birdies  .

[Jim_Kennedy]

Brad,


I went back to look at the date for the photo and although it was listed as "1900" there was a notation that "no data (was) recorded on the caption card".


The photo comes from the Bain Collection and the LOC says most of their work comes from 1900 to 1920.


Just a guess, but I think it's a photo of the 18th green (on the right) taken from the 13th fairway of the 18 hole VCPGC. By accident I cut off the right edge which showed a man on what looks to be a green. I'd say that the tent acted as a fee collection point when you entered the park from the train station (steps down from the tracks). The 1st hole was across the way, as shown by this 1915 map that Joe Bausch posted on the "Compilations" thread.


 

[MCirba]

You know you're getting older when someone brings a thread you started to your attention and you haven't the slightest memory of having done so...

That being said, I recently received an email asking what folks know about the evolution of the original 9th hole at Van Cortland that started out as 700 yards in 1896 but was listed as 550 yards just a few years later in 1899, prior to there being an 18 hole course.   So, any help there is appreciated, thanks.

Also, whether the original course was designed by Dunn, or Tucker, or Peters, it seems that for some time after Willie Dunn tried to parlay whatever he did or claimed he did to other cities by way of lobbying them to build municipal golf courses.   Here's one I recently came across from  Detroit.   

[MCirba]

Well, it didn't take much digging to answer the question about the shortening/truncation of the original ninth as this March 1899 Brooklyn Daily Eagle article detailing the expansion of the course to 18 holes by Tom Bendelow explains;

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Cirba,


In the NYC logistics of life, I still have not played Van Cortlandt. It just came up recently in conversation and I have it on the bucket list for 2022.


Thanks for posting.

[MCirba]

Mike Cirba,


In the NYC logistics of life, I still have not played Van Cortlandt. It just came up recently in conversation and I have it on the bucket list for 2022.


Thanks for posting.

Mike Sweeney,


Happy to join you if we can schedule.


I may be the only person on the planet who has played every NYC muni in all five boroughs with the exception of Kissena Park which I need to get to this year, as well

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike Cirba,


In the NYC logistics of life, I still have not played Van Cortlandt. It just came up recently in conversation and I have it on the bucket list for 2022.


Thanks for posting.

Mike Seeeney,


Happy to join you if we can schedule.


I may be the only person on the planet who has played every NYC muni in all five boroughs with the exception of Kissena Park which I need to get to this year, as well

Your not the only one, or maybe you are as I have not played any munis in Manhattan!😉

[MCirba]

Chris,


Good on you!!



I see your New York City and I'll raise you Baltimore.   


Hoping to knock DC off the list with a visit to Langston before end of year.   


Muni golf is the new shabby chic.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike,


Uncle . . . You win!!


I have not played in Baltimore and DC!!

[MCirba]

Mike,


Uncle . . . You win!!


I have not played in Baltimore and DC!!

Chris,


I strongly suspect you'd trash me throughout the midwest.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike,


Uncle . . . You win!!


I have not played in Baltimore and DC!!

Chris,


I strongly suspect you'd trash me throughout the midwest.

Mike,


Funny that you bring up Baltimore public golf as I really want to play several of their public courses the aerials intrigue me.


I have had the options several times in recent years to golf in DC, but I could never get early tee times and if my time in NYC has taught me anything it’s either early or late for tee times or prepare for a very long day!


Chris

[Jim Sherma]

Mt Pleasant in Baltimore is well worthy. One of the great surprises I’ve had in the past few years. Rough neighborhood these days, but really good piece of land that’s well used.

[MCirba]

Mount Pleasant is indeed an excellent design on cool land, Jim.   Glad you got down there.   Pine Ridge has its merits, as does Clifton Park.   Back in the 80s and 90s all the Baltimore tracks were in really good condition.   Unfortunately, I suspect that isn't really the case any longer.

[Mike Sweeney]

With a 50+ degree today, I got a late pass from The Boss, and finally pulled the lever at Van Cortlandt GC today. I am glad I did, but it is probably the most complicated routing in the history of golf! It seems to be split in 4 different sections between monsters highways, and insanely long walks:




As a result, many/most seemed to be riding, and it was the dreaded "cart paths only"!!

There are some charming short holes:







In addition, the clay based soil of the Bronx just does not work for winter golf. I played out at Montauk Downs (see below) on 12/30/21, and the sand allows the course to be in pretty good shape for winter golf.



As a fan of Muni Golf, Van Cortlandt has an interesting history, but the course is just too chopped up now, for me.

Happy New Year.

[Greg Hohman]

I have time this August for one NYC muni. Is VC the best “time capsule” experience?

[Chris_Blakely]

I have time this August for one NYC muni. Is VC the best “time capsule” experience?

I would play the NYC munis in the following order:


La Tourette on Staten Island
Pelham Bay Park - Split Rock
Pelham Bay Park - Pelham Bay
Van Courland (maybe lower, I have had my two longest rounds ever on this course, so I may be a bit jaded)
Douglaston
South Shore
Clearview


Chris

[Greg Hohman]

Thanks, Chris. If you have some moments to spell out the "time capsule" qualities of your top pick/s, I'm listening.

[Pierre_C]

Forest Park, in Queens, is a good course. One of my favorite muni in NYC. It has a nice routing and some interesting holes, especially 4, 7, and back nine. A normal round is just over 4 hours.


The first tee time at Van Courtlandt is 5:36 am; if you take it then you can finish around 10:00. 




https://golf-nyc.book.teeitup.com/search?date=2024-05-23

I have time this August for one NYC muni. Is VC the best “time capsule” experience?

I would play the NYC munis in the following order:


La Tourette on Staten Island
Pelham Bay Park - Split Rock
Pelham Bay Park - Pelham Bay
Van Courland (maybe lower, I have had my two longest rounds ever on this course, so I may be a bit jaded)
Douglaston
South Shore
Clearview


Chris

[MCirba]

I'm a big fan of Split Rock, which has the most interesting greens in NYC.   The late, great Dr. Geoffrey Childs loved it there and was an advocate for a Bethpage style restoration instead of spending the monies to create Ferry Point and I would have to agree.

[Greg Hohman]

Shortage of time might limit us to nine holes. Of the top picks, is there a standout nine?

Mike's opinion of the Split Rock greens may be the deciding factor.

OT: Another objective is to walk as much of the Flynn course at Kykuit as the "Grand Tour" there allows.

[Chris_Blakely]

Greens at Split Rock and some of the bunkering are the definition of quirk.  I love the layout and greens at Pelham.  So either are good, but SR is better.  My brother in law just played SR on my recommendation and loved it.


La Tourette has very good rolling terrain and a wonderful layout.  It’s my favorite in NYC.  Several really cool greens there.


South Shore is an old Devereux Emmet course that still has some unique old school features.


I am not a fan of Van Cortlandt Park but the last three holes are great.


Good luck picking a course.


Chris