[Joe Leenheer]

We are having an abnormally mild winter here in Ohio and we have enjoyed golf in November, December, and now January! 


I'm at a private club which has several members that just LOVE to golf and will golf in most any conditions. 


Our greens were frozen as of today but after a bit of rain this afternoon and some temperatures in the low to mid 40's, the conditions may be a bit softer tomorrow.  My previous club (in the same area) never utilized temporary greens.  The superintendent simply said that when it's frozen there is no real risk of damage.  Even during times while the greens were "thawing" he never restricted play.  I never saw any damage.


At my current club, I've hear that members ignore the temporary flagsticks and just play to the greens.  Again, no damage. 


Looking for some perspective from superintendents on playing to and on frozen greens as well as comments from golfers about their feelings about temporary greens.

[Andrew Simpson]

Interested on this as a course with a low volume of play we never saw any problems but with a new Head Greenkeeper we have been blighted with this no play, just to keep up with the others I suspect. I could see problems with pitch marks but who flies it onto a frozen green to see it bound through?

[Greg Chambers]

We never used temp greens at the courses I was at around Denver. We would cut "winter cups" which were usually four hole locations per green, and ask the golfers to rotate the flagsticks.  This spread out the wear and tear.  Never really had any issues related to golfers playing on frozen greens.

[A.G._Crockett]

I've seen it both ways at clubs to which I've belonged.  None of them allow play when there is frost, of course, but some do allow play on frozen greens while others do not.

I think it is safe to say that when the greens are frozen, there is little likelihood of damage from play if only because almost nobody is willing to play anyway, and those that do play hit greens in very, very small numbers.  Cold, dense air, with multiple layers of clothing and a cold, stiff body underneath isn't exactly a recipe for crisp iron play, right?  Besides which most golfers who play in those conditions understand that they have to play the ball short of the green anyway; if you hit a frozen green on the fly, you may never see your ball again!

[Patrick_Mucci]

We are having an abnormally mild winter here in Ohio and we have enjoyed golf in November, December, and now January! 

I'm at a private club which has several members that just LOVE to golf and will golf in most any conditions. 

Our greens were frozen as of today but after a bit of rain this afternoon and some temperatures in the low to mid 40's, the conditions may be a bit softer tomorrow. 
My previous club (in the same area) never utilized temporary greens. 
 
Did they restrict play ?
 
The superintendent simply said that when it's frozen there is no real risk of damage. 
 
Even during times while the greens were "thawing" he never restricted play. 
 
I never saw any damage.
 
I don't know that you'd see the damage as it may be too subtle for your eye, and, damage isn't necessarily immediate, but, I'm sure that superintendents see the damage and as such, make the call.

At my current club, I've hear that members ignore the temporary flagsticks and just play to the greens.
 
Again, no damage.
 
How do you know that ?
Isn't it too early to make that assessment ?
 
Are those members qualified enough to detect any damage ?
 
Looking for some perspective from superintendents on playing to and on frozen greens as well as comments from golfers about their feelings about temporary greens.

I would imagine that soil conditions would influence outcomes.
 
My take is fairly simple.
 
You hire a PROFESSIONAL to provide expertise and advise accordingly.
 
If the PROFESSIONAL determines that play in the winter can damage the greens, I'm going with his opinion versus the opinions of dentists, accountants and other members who aren't involved with agronomy as a profession.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,
 
Let me ask you another question.
 
If, as a result of winter play, the greens are damaged and aren't healthy this spring and summer,
 
1. are you going to throw out the dentists, accountants and other members who lobbied for playing the regular greens ? 
 
2. OR, are you going to fire the Superintendent ?
 
We know that the answer isn't # 1.

[Joe Leenheer]

Joe,
 
Let me ask you another question.
 
If, as a result of winter play, the greens are damaged and aren't healthy this spring and summer,
 
1. are you going to throw out the dentists, accountants and other members who lobbied for playing the regular greens ? 
 
2. OR, are you going to fire the Superintendent ?
 
We know that the answer isn't # 1.

Mr. Mucci,


I've been at my current club for 4 years…I'm there everyday.  I'm neither a member nor a superintendent, but I do have a bit of a grasp on turf health.  Each spring we have come out of winter in great shape and there is NO damage from golf….I think everyone define "damage" as something that requires "fixing". 


In fact….we had a "snow golf" event one January day last winter when the temperatures were near freezing.  A Path was made directly across a green and I would estimate that the path was traversed 100+ times.  It was snow covered, and the snow became compacted and then froze over.  After the melt, there was a noticeable discoloration in the turf.  I was concerned that the green was damaged.  Two weeks later, you couldn't see a trace of anything.  No additional maintenance practices were done do that particular green.


At my previous club which I was at for 5 years and there was no restriction on play.  Same story….some winter golf and no damage. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/hartwiger-moeller-winter-1-9-15.pdf

[Pete_Pittock]

Fact.  I remember seeing footprints 'burned' into a poa annua green during an extended freeze still being visible a month after the incident.

[Adrian_Stiff]

If you play golf in the winter you will get damage. That is an absolute fact. It is the degree of damage done of course and this changes where you are in the world.


Someone once said to me if you count a round of Golf in June (UK Summer) as 1 unit of damage that damage might be as much as 20 units of damage in the Winter (UK January).


Modern USGA constructions don't compact like old style greens, but you are still walking over and wearing a dormant or semi dormant grass so causing some degree of destruction and thinning. This is the major reason for Poa Annua domination in the UK. I think if you did not play golf on bentgrass greens here from mid-October to May 1st you could keep pure swards...it is of course not practical.


Frozen greens don't cause lots of damage unless you play more than 250 rounds to the same cup. When the green is coming out out of the thaw and the top inch or two is soft and normal but the roots are still in the perma-frost is most dangerous as the roots can be sheared with just a normal walk across.


Tees wear and can't be repaired with normal seeding and divotting, concentrated areas wear i.e edges of bunkers and walk offs also. In the UK we just accept damage as play in the winter months is only a fraction of summer play and some people would not tolerate not being able to golf from November through to April which is our semi-dormant season.


In some places in the world all the above does not really correspond as the grasses or oversown grasses still grow.

[Marc Haring]

Modern USGA constructions don't compact like old style greens, but you are still walking over and wearing a dormant or semi dormant grass so causing some degree of destruction and thinning. This is the major reason for Poa Annua domination in the UK. I think if you did not play golf on bentgrass greens here from mid-October to May 1st you could keep pure swards...it is of course not practical.

I agree with that Adrian. I once helped maintain a bowling green which are closed for the entire winter and poa really was hard to find in the sward.

[archie_struthers]

 




We play a lot here at the south jersey shore in the winter. Obviously playing on frost is strictly taboo.


We don't see a lot of damage to the greens but the tees on the three pars can tsk equity a beating as the grass won't germinate any more at the current soil temps.  So we try to get people to replace all divots religiously and seal with some sand filler.  It's not perfect by any means but does reduce the damage appreciably.


This year we really have a lot of play with temps around 50 degrees Fahrenheit all winter. So we really ask members to drive carts carefully and try to use common sense and stay out of any wet areas.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Adrian sums it up nicely and Pat makes some worthwhile comments.

The two big issues are frost (which is fairly obvious) and secondly, a thaw, where the roots can be sheered of at the frozen/thawed interface. If the turf is frozen solid then no damage can occur.

Damage from sheered roots may not be seen or manifest for a long period - it'll depend on the depth where the roots were torn - the shallower the sheer point, the sooner the damage can be seen. The goal of every greenkeeper is to go into summer (ie the high stress period) with as much roots as possible. The more roots one can grow in the Fall/early winter the better to get a head start in the spring. Anything that can damage these roots will set the turf (and greenkeeper) back in preparations for the summer. A greenkeeper has to prepare for the worst case. Ie assume it will be a long hot summer with a lot of stress and hope the roots are long enough to sustain a healthy plant throughout. Of course the summer could be mild so any repercussions from winter damage may be minimal but just as easily it could go the other way and the turf is less than ideal in the late summer/Fall. 

One other point to consider is the amount of play. The more play the greater potential for damage. My point is a few stragglers wandering onto the temporary greens is less of an issue than if everyone was on them.

[Joe Leenheer]

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/hartwiger-moeller-winter-1-9-15.pdf

Jim,


Thanks of this….great read and exactly what I was hoping to find by starting this thread. 


My closing thoughts are that anytime golf is played, turf is damaged.  Turf is always in danger no matter what time of year.


I love the "Conclusion" of the article that states


"Golf is an outdoor game played on growing turfgrass plants. Inevitably,
[/color]there will be times of the year when
[/color]what is good for golfers might not be
[/color]good for golf course turf."
[/color]
I think the phrase "what is good for golfers" resinates in my ears the most.  In my situation, my members are #1.  Our goal is that if they want to play, we do our best to deliver. 

On a side note…we had 40 rounds played today…high of 50 degrees!  Yesterday the super said he didn't want anyone on the greens at all….today he was driving a sprayer on the greens and put down an application.   I'm no genius, but would't a sprayer rig do more damage then a couple golfers?
[/color]

[BHoover]

My course held an open house today and our superintendent made an interesting, and I thought somewhat relevant comment about winter damage. The course is encouraging members to come out to do some snowshoeing this winter. A member asked if walking on the greens was problematic. Our super had no problem with it. In his words, once the ground is frozen you can't really do any damage to the turf (it's 3 degrees here today, so frozen turf won't be tough to achieve).

Our superintendent came from Oakmont and Baltusrol, so I'm inclined to take his word for it that he knows what he's talking about.

[Kalen Braley]

Maybe "avoiding winter damage" is code word that a super or otherwise uses for, "I don't want to have to come out and open the course on a 20 degree day for 5 hard core guys who want to play"

It seems like given the sparse amount of winter play, there is still overall less damage going on than a full day of play in the prime summer months.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,


Here are the footprints that one foursome leaves on a green. The concentration around the cup could be a problem.   

[Sean_A]

I am far from an expert, but it seems to me that most places can get away with winter play simply because the number of rounds naturally declines.  That said, golfers should be smart enough to know not to unnecessarily tramp on greens...walk around...it takes longer but saves the green a bit.   A sign on the first tee and few more on later tees couldn't hurt as a reminder. So supers should encourage this by keeping holes near edges.  The one time where I think it is really necessary to shut down is when greens are wet.  Footprints in greens last a long time through the winter.  One bad day can result in a green being mucked up for a few months. 


Even on fairways if near the edge I push my ball to the rough in winter to give the course a break.  Besides, I don't mind damaging rough 


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am far from an expert, but it seems to me that most places can get away with winter play simply because the number of rounds naturally declines.  That said, golfers should be smart enough to know not to unnecessarily tramp on greens...walk around...it takes longer but saves the green a bit.   A sign on the first tee and few more on later tees couldn't hurt as a reminder.

Sean - I would say 90% are not smart enough. Almost everyone walks in the most direct route to the next tee or to their bag. Even at the expense of a path 1 metre away. The theory is great though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

After reading the link posted by Jim Kennedy, what's your conclusion/opinion ?

Should your superintendent make the call or should an Ad Hoc vote by the members in the Pro Shop on the day in question determine whether or not to play ?

[Kyle Harris]

This is a troubling thread.

Your superintendent made a decision and you're posting on a very public forum looking to either defend or fight that decision.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Our course has been one of the few fully open locally. I have heard that even links courses such as St Annes Old and Royal Lytham have been at least partially closed this week due to the very wet conditions.

The main damage I have seen over recent days comes from trollies - particularly electric trollies which are more or less ubiquitous.

How effective are the "hedgehog" wheels? Should there not be a "carrying only" rule when the course is very wet?

Half a dozen clubs in a pencil bag is doable for everyone who walks and IMO could save a lot of damage.

[Joe Hancock]

It's always the most dramatic responses to a situation that get the highlights. The fact is that damage can occur quicker during winter months when turf can't recuperate. It's also a fact that I, personally, have never seen dead turf that occurred from allowing play during winter months, even though I have seen cosmetic evidence of damage. I have never heard of a golf course that has re-sodded or re-seeded because of winter play. I have heard of many courses that had to re-sod or re-seed because of winter kill that occurs as a combination of climatic conditions AND maintenance practices, so there's that.....

Bottom line? Trust your superintendent, but don't be afraid to ask him or her directly what the issues are. If the answer is purely speculative, then your next move is beyond me.

[Thomas Dai]

When the green is coming out out of the thaw and the top inch or two is soft and normal but the roots are still in the perma-frost is most dangerous as the roots can be sheared with just a normal walk across.

This is just as explained to me by numerous greenkeepers I have asked over the years. I also go along with what Pat M has said above that, to paraphrase, the decision as to open/close etc should be the Head GK's decision and should not be made or countermanded by whichever members of the green committee or board who happen to want to play that day.


One question regarding damage during thawing - when the top of a green/tee is thawing does walking and twisting while wearing soft spikes cause more damage to the roots through shearing than when wearing metal spikes?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thomas - I don't think it would matter significantly if soft or old metal spikes.


A lot of damage is unseen, compaction being the main one. Wet soil compacts easier than dry soil. Feet do the most damage, far more than trollies. The problem with the trollies is the tend to govern traffic into the same areas.

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