News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Pages: [1] 2 3

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Match play just doesn't do it!
« on: January 07, 2016, 10:16:01 AM »
I am not sure where the group here stands on match play comparison of golf courses but frankly it is a poor way to compare and/or to reach any consensus of which is the best design.  The critical flaw in the match play process is that it DOES NOT take into consideration the flow of the course/orientation and order of the holes. 


In an earlier thread I compared a great golf course/routing to a great symphony.  I can't think of a single great symphony or composition that is constantly at the max decibel level for the entire duration or one that doesn't end well. 
Logged

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 10:24:42 AM »
Quote from: Mark_Fine on January 07, 2016, 10:16:01 AM
I am not sure where the group here stands on match play comparison of golf courses but frankly it is a poor way to compare and/or to reach any consensus of which is the best design.  The critical flaw in the match play process is that it DOES NOT take into consideration the flow of the course/orientation and order of the holes. 


In an earlier thread I compared a great golf course/routing to a great symphony.  I can't think of a single great symphony or composition that is constantly at the max decibel level for the entire duration or one that doesn't end well.


I think the only way you can do that is par 3s vs par 3's, etc.  Comparing #7 at Pebble Beach to #7 at Pacific Dunes makes no sense, but #2 at Pebble vs #3 at Pacific Dunes would be a reasonable comparison. 
Logged

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 10:31:25 AM »
Match play is a fun way of comparing two courses.  That doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other.  It's just fun. 

For 95% of all of us on here, GCA is fun.  Let the other 5% figure it out for real.
Logged

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 10:48:34 AM »
Josh,
Totally agree it is fun!  Just trying to point out that it is not conclusive. 


Bill,
Comparing types of holes is a whole different animal. 
Logged

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 11:17:21 AM »
Why the need to compare courses rather than discuss the merits and weaknesses of each course individually?
Logged
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 11:37:54 AM »
Joe,
People love to compare things.  It is human nature.  My point was this technique is not great for that comparison process. 
Logged

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 11:39:28 AM »
Mark,

You're right x 3. I was just being a bit facetious, and shouldn't have been.
Logged
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 11:41:58 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 07, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Why the need to compare courses rather than discuss the merits and weaknesses of each course individually?

Because everything is relative.  Like, you're known for being a good putter.  But that's only because you play golf with the human Brillo pad.
Logged
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 11:50:08 AM »
Quote from: JC Jones on January 07, 2016, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 07, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Why the need to compare courses rather than discuss the merits and weaknesses of each course individually?

Because everything is relative.  Like, you're known for being a good putter.  But that's only because you play golf with the human Brillo pad.

That proves the fallacies that mere men perpetuate. Putting is the weakest link in my game, and you use the word "good" to describe it. How can I ever trust anyones' match play comparison of golf courses, which are far more complex than my figure 8, finishing with a toe-strike putting stroke?
Logged
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 11:50:43 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 07, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Why the need to compare courses rather than discuss the merits and weaknesses of each course individually?

C'mon Joe,  if you just talk about it, words are subjective and hard to compare.

But if you put in numbers, so it at least has the appearance of being quantitative, then everyone will accept it!!   ;D
Logged

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 11:52:06 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 07, 2016, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: JC Jones on January 07, 2016, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 07, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Why the need to compare courses rather than discuss the merits and weaknesses of each course individually?

Because everything is relative.  Like, you're known for being a good putter.  But that's only because you play golf with the human Brillo pad.

That proves the fallacies that mere men perpetuate. Putting is the weakest link in my game, and you use the word "good" to describe it. How can I ever trust anyones' match play comparison of golf courses, which are far more complex than my figure 8, finishing with a toe-strike putting stroke?

I think you just proved my point.
Logged
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 12:23:26 PM »
Match play comparisons for kicks are fine. Still, I'll add two more things that they get wrong:


1. People who use the match play comparison tactic are too reluctant to halve holes.


2. It doesn't account for holes that are so colossally great that they take a course to another level, or so pathetically bad that they ruin the experience a bit.


Those two things open the door for some homer to award every close hole to his butt-buddy course because he thinks a tap-in par wins the hole over a 3-footer for the same score, while mitigating the damage that the clearly superior course can do on the holes that it wins by consensus. This is how you end up with people making a case for Rustic Canyon over Pinehurst #2 in a match play comparison, for example.


I much preferred the boxing scorecard comparison that Kavanaugh pulled out for Dismal Doak vs Ballyneal a few years ago. I like the excitement of the possibility of knockout blows and knockdown rounds.
Logged
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 01:38:40 PM »
Does anyone know when the match play comparison thing started?


I ask because I remember many years ago arguing with Ran about a comparison between two courses, and just blurting out off the top of my head that course X "would win that match 5 and 3," without thinking about actually doing it.  And then he made me go through it, hole by hole.  I wonder if we invented it here?


For me it is a useful tool when I am trying to decide if some course is worthy of the top 100 or not, or trying to place a course on the Doak scale.  If one course doesn't convincingly beat another course in match play, it probably shouldn't be rated higher on the Doak scale, no matter how much I prefer the surroundings or stylings of one course to the other.  But it's not for splitting hairs, because as others have noted, there is so much room for bias in the match-ups.
Logged

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 01:50:55 PM »
Tom:


I suspect the match play comparison started soon after the first handful of guys had played the same two courses.  Perhaps right after the first away match by some Honorable Company or other.


Sven
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 01:56:08 PM »
I had never seen it before I saw Ran use it here back in the early days.


I have always had misgivings about its usefulness. Sven expressed reservation on another thread which I think are on the mark. Exhibit A is TOC. I'd guess it would lose most head-to-head matches.


Bob
Logged

Peter Pallotta

Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 01:57:04 PM »
Match play around here reminds me of a line that David Mamet did use and that John K might've used, which went sort of like this:


When anyone ever talks to you, they're not trying to share of themselves or to enlighten you, they're trying to SELL you something.
Logged

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 02:34:33 PM »
Quote from: BCrosby on January 07, 2016, 01:56:08 PM
I had never seen it before I saw Ran use it here back in the early days.


I have always had misgivings about its usefulness. Sven expressed reservation on another thread which I think are on the mark. Exhibit A is TOC. I'd guess it would lose most head-to-head matches.


Bob


Only if Joshua Crane was refereeing.


Sven
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 02:53:59 PM »
Not to defend the system, because it has its worts for sure...

But what quantitatively better??
Logged

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 05:45:55 PM »
Kalen -


Do we really need a "quantitative" basis for comparing golf courses?


Bob

Logged

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 06:45:02 PM »
Quote from: BCrosby on January 07, 2016, 05:45:55 PM
Kalen -


Do we really need a "quantitative" basis for comparing golf courses?


Bob

Assuming we want a good result, I think yes.

Exhibit A is the current thread on the latest GD World Rankings.  Folks in here are haggling over the numbers, the deltas, the methodology, the consistency of scores, etc.....

I think people very much care about a reliable method to evaluate one course against each other that is both measurable and repeatable
Logged

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 06:51:18 PM »
Wouldn't a match play between two courses be considered qualitative, rather than quantitative?
Logged
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 06:56:10 PM »
Quote from: Greg Chambers on January 07, 2016, 06:51:18 PM
Wouldn't a match play between two courses be considered qualitative, rather than quantitative?

ITs both...

Using qualitative properties to come up with a quantitative result.  This occurs all the time in various types of studies/surveys.....

P.S.  I've already stipulated the current method isn't perfect...but what's better?
Logged

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 07:15:07 PM »
Kalen,
Hole by hole match play is as Josh said - Fun!  But it is no way to compare great golf courses.  As one example, I am sure I could take an acknowledged "great" course and reorder the holes and it would no longer be nearly as great in fact it might be down right lousy.  Maybe another analogy is like playing the card game Hearts; some cards that might not seem like they are great can be great if they are played in the right sequence  ;)
Logged

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 07:23:56 PM »
I never read the hole by hole match play threads. It is an absurd way of comparing courses.
Logged
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Match play just doesn't do it!
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2016, 07:45:37 PM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on January 07, 2016, 07:23:56 PM
I never read the hole by hole match play threads. It is an absurd way of comparing courses.


agree, but on the whole course comparisons and take away thoughts... I like The Kingsley Club over GreyWalls 2 & 0 for the nip of scotch available at the 18th tee mailbox in the wall and the close walk back to #1 tee!
Logged
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"
Pages: [1] 2 3
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back