[David_Tepper]

"Looks wonderful, who is doing the work?"

Tyler K. -

Further info, per Joel Stewart post of 11/21/15 on prior thread:

<blockquote>Can anyone explain the relationship between Fazio Design and Jackson/Kahn Design.    A $500,000 number was attached to JK as part of the budget.  I am just curious what their part in the project entailed, if anyone knows for sure.   Thanks
</blockquote>

Tim Jackson was a design associate for Fazio for a number of years.  He lives in Irvine.  Although he left Fazio a few years ago he is acting as Fazios design associate (really co designer) for MPCC. Pinnacle Golf Design is also involved in landscaping and dune restoration.


I'm told most of the heavy work is completed and the grow in process is now taking place.


How do I know this???   With some of my strong comments, I happened to meet and play golf with Tim Jackson a few weeks ago.  We got off to a rough start as I blasted him before we teed off on the 1st hole (regarding MPCC).  Being the gentleman that he is, he defended himself and Fazio and he talked me through the entire process of MPCC.  He invited me down for a tour which I plan to do shortly.

[Joel_Stewart]

I was invited down last week for a tour but we had 3 days of terrible rain so I delayed for a few weeks.


There is no question it's going to be good.  With that land and views there will be hell to pay if it wasn't brilliant.


My problem is the ethical issue of placing a Fazio/Jackson course on top of a Seth Raynor course and routing.  I'm told the members said they have no interest in Raynor and wanted a completely new look.  Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do.


I'll report more when I go down and see it in a few weeks.


 

[David_Tepper]

"Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do."

Joel -

But the question is, was the Dunes course, as it existed in March, 2014, really a "classic?" Seems to me the course, at best, was a ghost of a classic, due to the Jones renovation of 20 or so years ago.

As I have mentioned on a prior thread, the club was presented by another GCA with a plan to restore the course in the manner of Raynor and they chose not to do so. I think it is very wrong to impugn the ethics of the GCA's who were hired for the job.

DT

[Bill_McBride]

I was invited down last week for a tour but we had 3 days of terrible rain so I delayed for a few weeks.


There is no question it's going to be good.  With that land and views there will be hell to pay if it wasn't brilliant.


My problem is the ethical issue of placing a Fazio/Jackson course on top of a Seth Raynor course and routing.  I'm told the members said they have no interest in Raynor and wanted a completely new look.  Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do.


I'll report more when I go down and see it in a few weeks.

Wasn't there a bunch of Mackenzie there too?

[David_Tepper]

"Wasn't there a bunch of Mackenzie there too?"

Bill -

There wasn't much Raynor and there was even less Mackenzie.

DT

[Matt_Cohn]

Anybody have any pre-Jones pictures of the Dunes?

[Bill_McBride]

"Wasn't there a bunch of Mackenzie there too?"

Bill -

There wasn't much Raynor and there was even less Mackenzie.

DT

I'm thinking about the '30's which neither of us saw!

[paul cowley]

I was invited down last week for a tour but we had 3 days of terrible rain so I delayed for a few weeks.


There is no question it's going to be good.  With that land and views there will be hell to pay if it wasn't brilliant.


My problem is the ethical issue of placing a Fazio/Jackson course on top of a Seth Raynor course and routing.  I'm told the members said they have no interest in Raynor and wanted a completely new look.  Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do.


I'll report more when I go down and see it in a few weeks.

Joel - I take offense with your uninformed and careless comment...you don't speak for me. Unfortunately this forum gives some people a pedestal to say stupid things while appearing to be knowledgeable.

[Joel_Stewart]

Paul:


Sorry you're offended. I wouldn't say I'm uniformed.  I've played 800 courses in the US and most of the Top 100 so I've seen the work first hand.  Furthermore I was a member at a fairly famous Top 50 course that has hosted the US Open numerous times that was butchered by former president of the ASGCA who lacked knowledge and experience in classic course restorations.


Do you want me to list every classic that has been renovated and not restored especially by Fazio?  I have said it before but it bears repeating that Tom Fazio doesn't care about classics and his work proves it.  MPCC is just the icing on the cake.


Tell me about a classic that a membership wanted to renovate and an architect was able to restore instead.  That should be inserted into the "Best of Golf" category if any exist.

[paul cowley]

Joel, as a member of the ASGCA I am offended by your clueless remark that all members (except two) would bulldoze classics if given the chance....and I don't really care about how many courses you've played because it obviously hasn't broadened your knowledge...just your ego it seems. Oh, as long as you're name dropping about Top 50 shit...I happen to be one of 8 people alive today who has designed and built a Top 50 in the World Golf Course...Golf Mag 2016 rankings for #38 Diamante. I guess that Donald Trumps you because you were just a member of one!

[paul cowley]

...oh and Joel...it gets worse...you just reminded me that as the senior design associate for Love Golf Design, we were invited to interview for the renovation of the Dunes course and Mark Love and I spent 3 days there hosted by the Club...walking the site and drawing various routing plans and options for the course before presenting to the Board. Unfortunately we weren't fortunate enough to land the job but I did gain a deep, almost forensic knowledge of the course and site. Before we went there we dove into research of the courses history and aerials as we were excited about the Raynor link...especially as we have designed at least 2 courses in the the CBM/Raynor style...a style with strategies that Davis in particular enjoys.


Excitement became a letdown during the first day...there was no evidence of Raynor to be had. The only evidence we could find was the 4th hole (downhill par three) that was a loosely defined biarritz in a nice setting. Researching further we discovered that this green was totally new...and a homage to Raynor created by Rees during his previous renovation! (to be cont'd if anyone cares to)

[David_Tepper]

"there was no evidence of Raynor to be had."

Case closed!
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,
 
I'm interested to know more about MPCC.
 
I only know of the Raynor history, having played the Jones version.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed the course, the routing and individual holes.
 
Yes, there were things I didn't like, like the right side mounding on # 15, but, overall, I really enjoyed playing the golf course, so, I'm interested to learn as much as I can about it.
 
Please continue.

[Pat Burke]

Paul,
Please continue.....popcorn ready

[Joel_Stewart]

Unfortunately we weren't fortunate enough to land the job but I did gain a deep, almost forensic knowledge of the course and site.

Shocking you didn't get the job considering your know it all attitude.


BTW, I looked at Diamantes web site and didn't see your name?  When you get a top 100 course with your name on it, let us know. Furthermore, I didn't see your name on the Love web site.  http://www.lovegolf-design.com/home.htm


Instead of attacking me, why don't you address the problem you are so offended with, ethics?  The only ethics the ASGCA is concerned with is if a member attempts to steal a job from another architect.  Bad work or bulldozing classics, is never rated or evaluated by ASGCA members.  They evaluate and give out awards (mainly for publicity) on environmental projects but give a pass to all the crap that has gotten golf into trouble. 

[paul cowley]

Try paulcowleygolf.com and no need to get back to me Joel

[Greg Tallman]

Try paulcowleygolf.com and no need to get back to me Joel

Got wáter?

[Tom_Doak]

Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do.

Joel:


You really owe Paul Cowley an apology for this statement, and I'm sure he's not the only one in the ASGCA who deserves an exception to your blanket statement, besides Bill Coore and Gil Hanse.


Making the comment about Tom Fazio's work is one thing; Mr. Fazio probably wouldn't even argue with your position, if he cared enough about what you think to bother.  But you are not familiar with Paul's work [or, most likely, with 25-50% of others who are ASGCA members], so you shouldn't make sweeping statements that disparage them.  That would be similar to architects making comments about "idiot GOLF DIGEST raters," or for that matter "stupid Golf Club Atlas posters."  Even though there are no doubt some of both.

[David Davis]

Bringing this one back for the positive aspect of it, the renovation. I'm not a huge fan of the Fazio courses I've seen (incidentally there are not that many either) however, I think the work that Jackson Kahn have done here is quite spectacular and I personally don't see anything Fazio in it at all (again based on my limited Fazio experience and what I've read.) I had played the Dunes course a few years back before the renovation and can say I recognize the general routing but outside of a couple holes, namely the two par 3's by the ocean it's just not even similar to the old Dunes course. I agree there was absolutely nothing Raynor about the course I played 4 years ago but everything RTJ. It was a nice well manicured parkland course and has turned into something quite spectacular both from a variation and architecture perspective as well as from a visual "eye candy" perspective. I love the mix of short and long holes. The start is decent, it picks up with the 3rd which is an excellent long par 4 but then just turns up a notch with the quirky long par 3 4th. The rest of the front 9 is just spectacular in my opinion. Great holes, lots of tree removal (could even be more) and indeed does have a bit of the Cypress Point feeling as it comes out of the forest through the dunes.


I like the flow and variation of the front 9 more than the back but both are really nice. I guess some people may argue against the usage of all the waste areas which to me fits the setting. On the other hand one of the members we were with mentioned being a little upset that the ocean views were all but taken away on the 11th hole, the par 5 running out to the famous par 3 across 17 mile drive. There was slight feeling on that hole of containment mounding to me but not bad by any means. I liked the hole and couldn't remember the older version of it very well.


In any case, I'm trying to figure out for myself if I like it more than Pebble. I think so which would put it as my #2 course on the Peninsular.

[David_Tepper]

Alan Shipnuck sure likes it:

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/monterey-peninsulas-renovated-dunes-course-west-coasts-newest-gem

[Joel_Stewart]

Fazio (and every other ASGCA member except for Coore and Hanse) has no problem bulldozing classics if that's what they are instructed to do.

Joel:


You really owe Paul Cowley an apology for this statement,

I certainly do. I hope Paul is still on this site.  Rereading my comments make me shudder. I have a lot of problems with certain ASGCA architects and the organization but this was out of line. Please accept my apology.


On another note, I haven't played the course yet but hope to shortly with Tim Jackson.  The Golf Magazine article is the first to discuss specific holes. I'm anxious to see how the holes play and put aside the supposed spectacular eye candy.

[James Bennett]

Bill McBride

a year ago you commented about Mackenzie and The Dunes.
From my reading, I understood he was involved in the par 3 tenth hole - a hole simply guarded by a single bunker front left but with a green complex set such that poor shots are rejected to the surrounds of the green.

Royal Adelaide has a similar hole (12th, long par 3 slightly downhill) which from the original tee (now the ladies tee) was similar in length.  I think the hole existed before Mackenzie's visit to Adelaide.  I'm not sure on the timelines whether the Dunes hole was built before or after this visit.

James B

[Jon Cavalier]

I'm not going to lie -- I expected to hate this course.  I was angry when I heard the club had chosen Fazio to renovate the course, rather than restore or rebuild the Raynor design -- I have never played a Fazio course that I really loved, and I'm a big fan of Raynor's work.


But I have to say, I thought Tim Jackson and David Kahn did a tremendous job with this course -- its fun, playable, challenging and stunningly gorgeous.  They did great work, and the finished course provides an excellent complement to the Shore course. 


Some random photos:

[J_ Crisham]

My understanding is that 3 greens are going to be "softened" due to extreme internal contouring? My host at MPCC last week mentioned that the club is trying to achieve a balance between member play on the Shore and the Dunes. I thought the new Dunes an improvement visually from the prerenovation. The waste bunkering is visually stunning- reminded me of what we saw in the dunes at CPC.  Lets face it, golf anywhere on the Monterey Peninsula is very special. To quote one of my playing partners " This is how life should be"

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Jon,

What's going on with the tee box in your first photo? Is this the hole across the street of 17 Mile Drive? Looks like maybe its the abandoned tee box of the previous design.

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