What makes Spyglass Hill so difficult?

[Mike Hendren]

I honestly don't get this seemingly consensus opinion.  Why is Spyglass considered so difficult?
 
Mike

[Andrew Carr]

I've never played it, but this is what Google has to say:

"Spyglass Hill Golf Course is rated one of the toughest courses in the world from the Championship tees, boasting a course rating of 75.5 and a slope rating of 144."

[Tim_Weiman]

I honestly don't get this seemingly consensus opinion.  Why is Spyglass considered so difficult?
 
Mike

I've played Spyglass about five times, but it was a long time ago and always with persimmon, blades and balata. My recollection is that the course seemed to keep you off balance. Just didn't seem like there were many, if any, holes where birdies were easy to come by.


Spyglass opened in 1966 and may have established its reputation before technology encroached on the game. The course record today is 62, but reputations die hard.

[Bill_McBride]

Spyglass plays really long due to the typically moist conditions.  Once you get into the forest there really aren't any birdie holes. 

[Tom_Doak]

I honestly don't get this seemingly consensus opinion.  Why is Spyglass considered so difficult?
 

Mike:


It's a tough course, but there are many of those nowadays.


Spyglass' reputation stems from the first couple of years they played it as part of the rotation for the old Bing Crosby pro-am.  The course wasn't really mature yet, the greens were hard and fast and the lies were pretty bare, and it just ate up the pros by comparison to Pebble and Cypress [neither of which are exceptionally tough, except in the wind]. 


The players moaned about it so much that it became accepted as one of the toughest of courses.  There was a great quote about it in the Trent Jones biography that came out a year ago ... can't remember it right now though.

[Kalen Braley]

Hmm,

I'll take a stab at it.... 3 reasons.

1)  Relatively narrow playing corridors and if you get in the trees, or even the wet/tacky rough, you can probably kiss par goodbye.
2)  Undulating terrain for the most part with uneven sidehill and down/up hill lies
3)  Well protected green complexes where missing them often means a difficult up and down.

[Mike Hendren]

I should add that I like the course - a lot.
 
Bill, I thought about the course playing longer due to being at sea level and generally moist, but then again that applies to Pebble Beach and Cypress Point as well. 
 
Tom's comment hits at my thought - it's not that Spyglass is that hard - but rather that Cypress Point is that easy.
 
I thought in particular that Spyglass's 3's and 5's weren't that difficult and that the 2nd and 4th give the better player an opportunity to gain a little ground on the front end on the two shot holes.  BTW, the 4th makes my all-world list.
 
I never bought in to the theory that the course suffers by getting you right down to the ocean, then turning its back.  I like the unconventional (and perhaps the immediate gratification).
 
I simply don't recall much pain and suffering during my round.  By comparison, I felt over-matched a few times at Pebble, notably at 8,9,12, 14 and 17.
 
Bogey

[Ian Andrew]

After the first two fours, the rest are all long , play uphill and feature elevated greens bunkered on both sides. It adds a half club to many approach shots and removes any ability to "run one it." Many of those approach shots are either from uphill or side hill lies. It places an awful lot of pressure on your ability to hit middle or long irons from some unusual lies. It wears the good player down, like Bethpage Black does coming home.

The three shorter fours (17th being short) all have challenging greens to hit.

MY2C

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, I thought about the course playing longer due to being at sea level and generally moist, but then again that applies to Pebble Beach and Cypress Point as well. 

 MIKE, I MENTIONED THAT THE COURSE PLAYS SOFTER AND LONGER AFTER #5, THATS BECAUSE ITS ALL IN THE FOREST.  BOTH PEBBLE AND CYPRESS ARE MUCH MORE OPEN AND PLAY FIRMER.  AT LEAST THATS MY THOUGHTS FROM FORTY YEARS AGO.

[Mark_Fine]

I personally think Spyglass is resting a bit on its laurels.  Don't get me wrong, I like the golf course and always enjoy playing it (close to 40 rounds there).  It has some world class golf holes but it also has some that are very vanilla. Is it hard; it can be, but it is not brutal or intimidating like Oakmont or Winged Foot can be.  It used to be much harder.  #16 for example, used to be almost impossible (always one of it not the hardest hole on the PGA tour) but it was significantly softened.  The greens can be hard to read, trees are a factor, as are the varying turf conditions.  The topography adds challenge as does the wind and marine layers that both impact ball carry and roll.  SP is a very good test of golf but it is no Pebble Beach or Cypress Point! 

[Nigel Islam]

I think Pebble is underrated with regards to difficulty. Despite the contention that Spyglass is so much harder, the scores are not that far apart. I do think MPCC Shore plays easier than either though.

[mike_beene]

Newer equipment has changed Spyglass significantly. The wet conditions and hills really affected the old game where the ball went shorter distances and roll was a bigger percentage of a drive.Seems like we hit a lot of woods in to greens in the old days.

[cary lichtenstein]

I played Spyglass probably 25 times, one of a handful of courses I never broke 80. Tough to get up and down when u can't see the pin. Toughest by far of the 3 courses.

[Rob Collins]

I really enjoyed the historical context of Tom's response, & I imagine that those initial impressions are still a factor today.

For me, personally, I think it is difficult because it plays longer than the yardage due to the uphill nature of many of the approach shots along with the fact that it usually seems to play soft. Also, it has relatively skinny fairways and there usually isn't a lot of room to miss -- the end result being a lot of holes that have a penal / target golf feel to them. I first played the course in 2010 in the Callaway Invitational. Our playing partner for our rounds there was John Douma, a journeyman pro who never missed fairways (literally), averaged 285+ off the tee, had a great short game, and was a good putter. In the tournament round, I think he scraped together a 72 or 73. The rest of us, well.........

I came away from the course really disliking what I saw. My overall impression is that it was a waste of a great piece of land. Imagine if C&C or Doak had received that commission? The course would be a strategic masterpiece full of half par holes...many that are "gettable" and others that just kick your ass. There's very little of that at Spyglass. The overall sensation for me was a slog with a terrible stretch of finishing holes. In sum, a missed opportunity....

I compare that experience to the one that I was fortunate to have this year at Cal Club. To me, Cal Club is the antithesis of Spyglass. It's firm, fast, strategic, & full of holes that you can score on (or rack up big numbers on if you don't hit your shots). On every approach & recovery, I was trying to create a shot or play a bounce...a feeling that was basically nonexistent at Spyglass. On top of that, I walked 18 holes in 2.5 hours....At Spyglass, on the other hand, you find yourself gritting your teeth while you look for positives to justify the exorbitant green fee. Bottom line - it's a slog & it wears you out...this, more than anything, contributes to that perception.

[Tim_Weiman]

I personally think Spyglass is resting a bit on its laurels.  Don't get me wrong, I like the golf course and always enjoy playing it (close to 40 rounds there).  It has some world class golf holes but it also has some that are very vanilla. Is it hard; it can be, but it is not brutal or intimidating like Oakmont or Winged Foot can be.  It used to be much harder.  #16 for example, used to be almost impossible (always one of it not the hardest hole on the PGA tour) but it was significantly softened.  The greens can be hard to read, trees are a factor, as are the varying turf conditions.  The topography adds challenge as does the wind and marine layers that both impact ball carry and roll.  SP is a very good test of golf but it is no Pebble Beach or Cypress Point!

Mark,


I'm with you on #16. Seemed awfully long. Curious how it was softened.

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
#16 used to have a very tiny green tucked into the upslope and surrounded by rough (no run up shots) with two deep greenside bunkers short and middle left protecting it.  It was brutal. 


Again, Spyglass is hard but I would take four rounds there vs four rounds at Pebble and take my chances on lower total score. 

[Joel_Stewart]

After the first two fours, the rest are all long , play uphill and feature elevated greens bunkered on both sides. It adds a half club to many approach shots and removes any ability to "run one it." Many of those approach shots are either from uphill or side hill lies. It places an awful lot of pressure on your ability to hit middle or long irons from some unusual lies.

This is well stated. Together with the wet grass which was also mentioned makes it long and hard.

Technology has helped even the score. With today's clubs and balls it doesn't play nearly as hard as in the 70s and 80s.  Furthermore with Fazio sterilizing the course and the Pebble Beach company drastically improving the drainage it's remarkably more playable.

[Niall C]

I played Spyglass probably 25 times, one of a handful of courses I never broke 80. Tough to get up and down when u can't see the pin. Toughest by far of the 3 courses.

Cary


I'm over in March and Spyglass is one of the courses I'm playing. It was picked because the group of pals I'm going with wanted to play Pebble Beach and then it was a case of playing the "best" courses in the area after that. If I'd read your description of not being able to see the pin on up and downs I'd probably have tried to avoid it. When you miss as many greens as I do, blind up and downs get tedious fairly quickly.


Niall

[Rob Marshall]

I played Spyglass probably 25 times, one of a handful of courses I never broke 80. Tough to get up and down when u can't see the pin. Toughest by far of the 3 courses.

Cary


I'm over in March and Spyglass is one of the courses I'm playing. It was picked because the group of pals I'm going with wanted to play Pebble Beach and then it was a case of playing the "best" courses in the area after that. If I'd read your description of not being able to see the pin on up and downs I'd probably have tried to avoid it. When you miss as many greens as I do, blind up and downs get tedious fairly quickly.


Niall

I didn't get that sense when I played it. I don't remember having blind up and downs but then again I only played it once. It's a lot of fun Niall and the view from standing on the first tee is amazing. Have fun.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

America's most overrated course.  Take away the ocean and #4 and the first 4 holes are nothing.  When you get into the forest the fairways are crowned so that balls roll off the fairway into rough or pine straw.  You are then left with sidehill or downhill lies hitting 180 yards to an elevated green.  Despite tree removal and improved drainage the course stills plays very long.  The greens are all RTJ large sloping greens of the 1960s(e.g. Valencia, Mission Viejo).  No fun, just difficult to putt.  A difficult walk.  I can only recall 3 par 3's.  All elevated tees to greens with no options or run up possibilities.  All this at a ridiculous price.
If you think Cypress Point is easy, play it in a 25 mph wind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bogey,


Bill McBride and Kalen hit the primary points.


First, it's about 7,000 yards long, plays in dense moist air, tends to be wet, and it's narrow.


On the front nine, If you look at the terrain, a par 5 takes you down to the low point on the property then long par 4 holes like 6, 8 and 9 take you back up.


# 8 has to be one of the most difficult par 4 holes in golf when it comes to making a birdie.


The back nine presents a different challenge.


It's certainly not an easy golf course by any standard.

[Rob Marshall]

Bogey,


Bill McBride and Kalen hit the primary points.


First, it's about 7,000 yards long, plays in dense moist air, tends to be wet, and it's narrow.


On the front nine, If you look at the terrain, a par 5 takes you down to the low point on the property then long par 4 holes like 5, 8 and 9 take you back up.


# 8 has to be one of the most difficult par 4 holes in golf when it comes to making a birdie.


The back nine presents a different challenge.


It's certainly not an easy golf course by any standard.

 5 is a long par 3 with a two tiered green. You get a nice view across the water and see a tiny bit of Cypress Point. After putting out my caddied told me that now we get to the hard holes . The 6th hole heads back up hill as Pat stated.

[Matt_Cohn]

The greens, mostly. Everybody gets so caught up with the tee-to-green stuff about Spyglass, but that's not what makes the course, or what makes it difficult. It's the greens.


1 is as complex a green as I've seen.
2 is medium to flat but it's so hard to hit the green anyway.
3 slopes strongly front to back.
4 is steeply sloped within each section.
5 has several ledges on a 200 yard par-3.
6 is extremely sloped.
7 is very sloped both sideways and to the front.
8 is a sloped, crowned tier past a false front.
9 is huge, steeply sloped, with multiple ledges.
10 falls away past the midpoint.
11 is medium-sloped; not easy, but one of the easier ones.
12 has significant overall slope with a sideways dip in the middle.
13 is significantly sloped with two tiny ledges.
14 has a tiny ledge with a big drop-off and a steep sideslope.
15 has a little pocket next to the water and a crown at the back
16 might be a larger target now, but it's very steep. A 20-foot-putt across the middle of the green has 3 feet of break.
17 is really, really steep, like borderline being able to stop it from above the hole.
18 has two sloping tiers and a run off on the right.


So...that's why it's hard.

[Joel_Stewart]

The greens, mostly. Everybody gets so caught up with the tee-to-green stuff about Spyglass, but that's not what makes the course, or what makes it difficult. It's the greens.


1 is as complex a green as I've seen.
2 is medium to flat but it's so hard to hit the green anyway.
3 slopes strongly front to back.
4 is steeply sloped within each section.
5 has several ledges on a 200 yard par-3.
6 is extremely sloped.
7 is very sloped both sideways and to the front.
8 is a sloped, crowned tier past a false front.
9 is huge, steeply sloped, with multiple ledges.
10 falls away past the midpoint.
11 is medium-sloped; not easy, but one of the easier ones.
12 has significant overall slope with a sideways dip in the middle.
13 is significantly sloped with two tiny ledges.
14 has a tiny ledge with a big drop-off and a steep sideslope.
15 has a little pocket next to the water and a crown at the back
16 might be a larger target now, but it's very steep. A 20-foot-putt across the middle of the green has 3 feet of break.
17 is really, really steep, like borderline being able to stop it from above the hole.
18 has two sloping tiers and a run off on the right.


So...that's why it's hard.

I was waiting for you to answer.


Don't you feel it easier because you now have shorter irons into such greens?

[Matt_Cohn]

The greens, mostly. Everybody gets so caught up with the tee-to-green stuff about Spyglass, but that's not what makes the course, or what makes it difficult. It's the greens.


1 is as complex a green as I've seen.
2 is medium to flat but it's so hard to hit the green anyway.
3 slopes strongly front to back.
4 is steeply sloped within each section.
5 has several ledges on a 200 yard par-3.
6 is extremely sloped.
7 is very sloped both sideways and to the front.
8 is a sloped, crowned tier past a false front.
9 is huge, steeply sloped, with multiple ledges.
10 falls away past the midpoint.
11 is medium-sloped; not easy, but one of the easier ones.
12 has significant overall slope with a sideways dip in the middle.
13 is significantly sloped with two tiny ledges.
14 has a tiny ledge with a big drop-off and a steep sideslope.
15 has a little pocket next to the water and a crown at the back
16 might be a larger target now, but it's very steep. A 20-foot-putt across the middle of the green has 3 feet of break.
17 is really, really steep, like borderline being able to stop it from above the hole.
18 has two sloping tiers and a run off on the right.


So...that's why it's hard.

I was waiting for you to answer.


Don't you feel it easier because you now have shorter irons into such greens?

It was easier this summer when the fairways were so firm. The approaches to 6, 8, 9, 13, and 16 get pretty long for me when the course is soft. But overall I think people get too caught up in the difficulty of getting to the greens at Spyglass, when the real problems are on and around them.