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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2015, 11:56:53 PM »
David,
I'm a little confused.

I'm not asking for sympathy for what I am saying.  I don't need it and what those places do doesn't affect me at all.  I think that is where this site often gets off course.  Not everyone cares about the top 100 as much as we do the other10,000 courses where we can make a living.  I'm just calling it out.  And there is definitely no envy involved here. 
The best person to talk to about what I'm saying is to find a supt who was at a prominent upscale club who has now purchased his own place.  His outlook changes 180 degrees and his own place will be in great shape for mucho less....
So again...no sympathy asked for here...

Let me try this..I know nothing of your home but do you have a good roof on it?  Would you agree a slate roof is the ultimate?  Would you put a slate roof on it?  Same goes for every item and maintenance practice on a golf course....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2015, 02:55:07 AM »
I remember learning in school about the concept of "diminishing returns" in the business place. I grasped the concept to a degree and only in theory. It wasnt until I became involved in golf course maintenance that I really understood exactly what it means.

Golf course maintenance expenditure is so far from a linear equation that its not even funny. The richter scale is probably a better scale of measurement.

I would go as far as to suggest that most (not just high end) budgets could be reduced by 10 - 20% before golfers would even really notice. Turf professionals would maybe pick up the areas where inputs have been reduced but the golfing public would be fairly oblivious. A 20% reduction in budget does not translate to a 20% reduction in course quality.

As to which courses would do best with less, I think it would be largely dependent on grass types and climate.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 02:58:06 AM by Grant Saunders »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2015, 08:06:37 PM »
Newport
Maidstone
NGLA
Shinnecock
NGLA

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2015, 10:22:44 PM »
I would go as far as to suggest that most (not just high end) budgets could be reduced by 10 - 20% before golfers would even really notice. Turf professionals would maybe pick up the areas where inputs have been reduced but the golfing public would be fairly oblivious. A 20% reduction in budget does not translate to a 20% reduction in course quality.



Grant:


I'll go farther than that, and say that any truly great course would still be a great course if they slashed the maintenance budget in half.


I know it's true, because I remember when they all spent half as much!


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2015, 12:17:30 AM »
Tom Doak,

In fairness, that's when goods and services cost half as much.

If you just isolated your healthcare costs and compared today's versus 1980's you'd be amazed, and if you compared today's to 1964's you'd be almost in disbelief

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2015, 12:49:40 AM »
Run of the mill architecture that relies on uber conditioning is exposed when conditions revert to being secondary to architecture. The modern design/construction paradigm that focuses so much on function requires superb conditioning.

Great architecture is revealed when the focus is not on conditions.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2015, 09:54:13 AM »
Pat,
I still think TD and DM are right even with increased cost over the years.  For a long time superintendents realized that maintenance was there for golf but the industry eventually convinced the universities and the green committees that golf was there for maintenance.  It's sad when young supts advance by seeking higher maintenance budgets.  And the industry shuns doing it for less....
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 10:20:57 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2015, 10:01:24 AM »


Don,

I'd have to disagree with you on that.

"Links" golf, inherently, had conditions conducive to playing golf.

Those conditions don't exist in Houston, New Orleans, Miami, Las Vegas or Portland.

At those locations and elsewhere Conditions conducive to playing golf can only be achieved through maintenance practices.

"Architecture" is "static", it's fixed and cannot be significantly altered without money and manpower.

What isn't fixed are maintenance practices.
They can be reactively adjusted to assist in creating conditions conducive to playing golf.

Tell me, who out there in the golf world would accept green speeds returning to 6 ?

You also know what it takes and what it costs to maintain green speeds of 10 or so.

You also know that those in the golf world are not about to accept unmaintained bunkers.   And you know what you it takes to maintain them, in terms of cost and manpower.

NGLA, Shinnecock, Southampton, Westhampton, Friars Head and GCGC were designed to not preclude the ground game.  You know that those on GCA.COM have promoted F&F for over a decade, but, achieving and maintaining F&F costs money and manpower.

Play on the above courses, absent maintenance that produces F&F, would detract from the architecture rather than glorify it.

Run of the mill architecture that relies on uber conditioning is exposed when conditions revert to being secondary to architecture.


Could you provide some examples


The modern design/construction paradigm that focuses so much on function requires superb conditioning.


What is that "paradigm" ?

Great architecture is revealed when the focus is not on conditions.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2015, 10:26:13 AM »
Mike,


I've said it for decades and I'll say it again, the marriage of the PGA Tour and TV and their influence on local clubs are the leading culprits.


Viewers, Memberships, Green Committees and BOD's see the product on TV every week and turn to their Superintendents and tell them, "that's how we want our course to look", not understanding the money and manpower, not to mention the time it takes, to achieve those conditions.


Which club would settle for green speeds of 6 in 2016 ?
Which club would settle for unmaintained bunkers in 2016 ?


For 50 years I've advocated for yellow/brown/green fairways and the limited application of water.


Unfortunately, I can't present the golf world with weekly telecasts of courses with those conditions.  So for 50 years, the golf world has been watching lush, green conditions.
That's what they see and that's what they expect or demand.


How do you counter that ?


The only counter that I see is the increased cost of water.


Not long ago I was a guest at a course that had recently undergone some changes.
After the round, 8 of us were sitting around having drinks and one of the members asked me what I thought of the changes.   The first thing I said was that the course was too wet.   They all said that they had complained about that, spoken to Board members and written letters, but that nobody listened because they want the course to be GREEN.


So here you have 7 members, all complaining that the course is too wet, but those in charge want to keep it that way for appearance sake.  So how do you change that mindset when every week golfers see telecasts of lush green courses being played on the PGA Tour ?




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2015, 11:47:34 AM »
Is there a certain element of not cutting the umbilical cord when it comes to high level vrs low level maintenance?
For example, the bigger the maintenance budget the more folks will likely be on the crew and the more machines etc etc and thus more responsibility/higher salaries for those in charge?


More maintenance=more jobs. Not just maintenance crew jobs either but jobs in the materials and equipment and supplies business, tree surgens, mechanics, irrigation/drainage contractors, and jobs in club supervision and management etc etc jobs.


Atb

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2015, 11:54:12 AM »
Pat,
I don't disagree with your assessment.  And I have no idea of how one reverses it.  I don't think you can.  What I was sort of getting at on this thread is how much golf has been built on land that just wasn't meant for golf.  Some think sand capping is the solution.  I predict the next big expense to be thrust on the scene will be sand capping.  It's funny how we don't seem much mention of the great USGA green since so many good greens exist without it but there always has to be some new wave.  Lately I've heard several supts talking about wanting to sand cap which means some guy with all those ribbons on his blazer has been the talk of the seminars. 

Merry Christmas Pat
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2015, 12:11:41 PM »
Pat,
I'll take it one further.

So many of the old good courses can be maintained well with:
triplex greensmower
7 gang 11 blade transport frame for fairways
5 gang blitzer type unit for rough
72 inch out front rotary mower
a good lightweight triplex or fiveplex for tees, approaches and chipping areas etc

but so much of what is being done now will require five times that amount of equipment.
I have a photo from 1993 of Cypress Point where a Willys Jeep is pulling a 3 gang Jake fairway unit and a tricycle handle Jake greensmower is mowing collars...that's how much we have changed...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2015, 01:11:59 PM »
Mike

No sprayer? Nothing to mount it on?

Nothing to aerate and top dress?
No tractor to mount it on?

Nothing for leaf clearance?

No bunker bike?

Is reducing machinery not a false economy in some respects?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 01:14:11 PM by Ryan Coles »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2015, 01:25:50 PM »
Sorry Ryan, I was talking about cutting machines.  So much can be saved by just eliminating many HOC issues. Mow tees and collars and approaches the same etc...

Some reduction could be a false economy but there is so much overkill...I'vee seen some young supts that have never operated or used a gang mower...and have it in their head that is just will not work...same for a triplex greensmower
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2015, 01:40:18 PM »
Mike,


Tehama would seem to be exhibit "A" for land not meant for golf.


My thoughts are that the demand was there but good land wasn't available.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2015, 01:41:51 PM »
Mike

I agree - even applied to the frugal UK courses. Tees / approaches, aprons, first cut, fairway and rough all seem to need a different piece of primary equipment. On our courses that don't have a lot of room, it has narrowed the actual fairways down as well.

The only caveat I guess is that in growing season, you may need x2 of the same machine anyway to get it all done.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2015, 03:16:29 PM »
Mike

I agree - even applied to the frugal UK courses. Tees / approaches, aprons, first cut, fairway and rough all seem to need a different piece of primary equipment. On our courses that don't have a lot of room, it has narrowed the actual fairways down as well.

The only caveat I guess is that in growing season, you may need x2 of the same machine anyway to get it all done.


Yes. But it isn't just about cost, and we won't get acceptance unless we also explain why it's better for golf too, a true win/win. I have been trying to persuade a couple of heathland clubs that the ideal presentation of their courses would have no grass rough whatsoever, it would be fairway cut and then heather. Would look great and be far more sustainable - and support the strategic intent of the original design.


There is some acceptance of this in theory but I think we're some way from seeing it adopted in practice (of course you need a great stand of heather to make it possible).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

BCowan

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2015, 03:25:30 PM »
I'll say it again.  Diamond Springs in Michigan. 50-60 yard fairways and no cut fescue rough.  I believe gangs are used to cut tee boxes 2.  They have bluegrass fairways I think, like to see same concept with bent fairways.  Maint budget is very low. 

Private example would be Indianwood. Very low maint. Hardly any rough
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 03:39:20 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2015, 07:06:04 PM »
Mike - maybe one day soon there'll be a super who is almost totally off the grid - no facebook, no twitter, no internet, no email even, just a telephone landline and a mailbox. He won't be selling anything to anyone, and almost no one will be selling anything to him. And the golf course he manages will have members who are equally happy to be off the grid - no raters allowed, no rankings, no magazine articles, no buzz; they will come there for the golf, and for a golf course that is maintained simply and inexpensively, because it plays better and because it costs them less.
Yes, that sounds like a course in 1947 America, in a place like "Bedford Falls", with someone like George Bailey running the place. No one getting rich, no one putting on a show for the outside world. Sadly, doesn't the modern world seem to be about exactly the opposite goals and virtues?
Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2015, 07:27:13 PM »
"Sadly, doesn't the modern world seem to be about exactly the opposite goals and virtues?"

Yep.  I think you  are right Peter.  BUT if it doesn't change golf will continue to decrease in numbers.  The free enterprise system will not allow a product to cost more than it can demand in the market.  It's working right now.  Supposedly we need to be able to survive with 20 million golfers before this thing bottoms out.  We started at 28 million a few years ago and are at 23 million now.   My rant is not about the top places which will be fine. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2015, 09:22:38 PM »
"Sadly, doesn't the modern world seem to be about exactly the opposite goals and virtues?"

Yep.  I think you  are right Peter.  BUT if it doesn't change golf will continue to decrease in numbers.  The free enterprise system will not allow a product to cost more than it can demand in the market.  It's working right now.  Supposedly we need to be able to survive with 20 million golfers before this thing bottoms out.  We started at 28 million a few years ago and are at 23 million now.   My rant is not about the top places which will be fine.

Mike,

As you have said in the past there are successful low key all about the golf courses scattered about. Just because they aren't talked about on here doesn't mean they don't exist.  I forsee more groups of members buying their failing private clubs and turning them around.  There are positives to see.  My only concern is playing golf at a place down the road where people don't respect the game.  That's when I'll hopefully buy a small place in northern michigan and create my own back yard course and check out from the mainstream. 

PS- I gotta get down to the Fields...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2015, 09:33:20 PM »
Come on down....
There is a lot of public , semiprivate golf out there that works and the owner is not going to be out telling everyone...it all works out...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2015, 04:53:49 AM »
I am not buying the Shinnies of this world would function great without a sizeable maintenance budget.  And by that I mean the club would need well above the "average" budget to get on anywhere near the same way it does now...and golfers would be lamenting the deterioration of the course.  A thoroughbred is just that and shouldn't be treated like like a pull horse and there will always be room in the market for thoroughbreds. 

If we are arguing that any top notch club could kill 20% of the budget...probably...but that would still leave a huge budget.  That is a total nonissue for me..other than members, who cares if Shinny kills 20% of their budget?

Merry Christmas
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2015, 09:21:34 PM »
Sean A,


You should "buy it".


Evidently you're unfamiliar with conditions at Shinnecock before the 1986 Open.


Shinnecock, Maidstone, Newport and other clubs were maintenance "lite".


The USGA had to bring in their agronomist to improve the conditions on the golf course, yet, it remained a spectacular golf course, challenging, yet fun to play.


SHCC lagged far behind other clubs, near and far, with regard to the size and substance of their maintenance budget, But, the quality of the architecture is so outstanding that play was not adversely impacted to any great degree.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of the greats can function best on a lower maintenance budget
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2015, 05:15:27 AM »
Pat


That was 20 years ago.  People also go on about equipment from that day.  Its over...for better or worse the game has moved on.  High end golfers expect and will pay for pristine conditions.  I have never seen the problem with this in the way Mike does.  Every club has to find its niche and sure, many clubs aim well above their "station" in life.  I may think it silly, but if clubs can pull off spending loads of dosh to maintain average courses then ce la vie.  Its the way of the world to want more and we all do...its just that many of us are not able/willing to pay for it  8)


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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