[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - in reading about, say, the top 30 golf courses in America, it seems to me that only a very few are run, managed and maintained with the belief that great architecture is enough, and that quality design will shine through, and that a simpler presentation would make manifest ideal playability. So if those who actually run these clubs/courses don't seem to think that they can make them 'sing' on smaller budgets and less intensive maintenance practices, who am I to second guess them (no matter how much their pov / assessment might surprise me)?


Peter

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

Interesting take. To the extreme, if the greats weren't good enough before, then they aren't now. And they won't be in the future. So humans have to intervene and make everything better, with "better" being open-ended. So what we see today is only a step in the right direction as far as maintenance and presentation are concerned....apparently. Makes me wonder what the conditions will be in 50 or 100 years from now. All of which points to Mikes' rhetorical question, as none of the greats are going to allow for "less" of anything...

[JESII]

I don't know Joe...didn't Pinehurst go for "less"?


Not sure how it's gone since last years US Open but the idea was exactly this I believe...

[jeffwarne]

Well as usual, I'll go the other way.
I'd say ANGC could function the best, because if you cut some fat out of a really high budget, you still have a high budget,
and it plays all season on a cool season rye grass open for 7 reasonably cool months.


Conversely, a course with a lean budget such as perhaps Fishers, might struggle as there's a lot fat less to cut.

[Mike_Young]

As Joe says it was a rhetorical question and it took27 post before Pinehurst the poster child was brought up.  The post tell me what I was thinking and that is that cool season, sand based courses in climates that promote cool season grasses top the list. 
Once we leave those conditions the industry has gone to extremes to imitate or duplicate those conditions as much as can be done.  It initially wasn't done for the golf as much as it was for RE and resorts needing such PR.  However that spilled over into the clubs and went from there.  Whether it be a bunker built in clay to resemble a sand based bunker or a fescue rough pampered to grow in 95 degree weather....We have allowed one region of golf course conditions to set the bar for all others.  The Ultradwarfs may be the first change that surpasses those conditions...JMO

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

As far as Pinehurst goes, I'd say "kind of...".

If they wanted to get back to basics, they might not have planted tens of thousands of landscape plants in a bunch of new natural areas. They could have regrassed the roughs and let nature run it's course as to where the grass wants to grow...or not. I think mowing grass at rough height is one of the cheapest, sustainable maintenance practices on the course, as opposed to the herbicide applications and hand weeding that needs to be done to keep those "natural" areas "clean".

Nature abhors a vacuum, generally, but not when you consider vacant soil is always trying to be occupied by a plant.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm going to throw the courses at Bandon out there.

1) The climate is pretty optimal and you could get by only watering it 3 months out of the year, Mid-June to Mid-Sept.
2) You could let most of the bunkering maintenance go and only hit em once per week.
3) Narrow some of the fairway widths and let the fescue grow in between holes.
4) Mowing would be greatly reduced from Mid October thru Mid April due to colder temps and grass growing slower.

The hard part would be getting customers to accept all those bunker as wild and wooly with a bunch of iffy lies.

[Mike_Young]

Jim,

As far as Pinehurst goes, I'd say "kind of...".

If they wanted to get back to basics, they might not have planted tens of thousands of landscape plants in a bunch of new natural areas. They could have regrassed the roughs and let nature run it's course as to where the grass wants to grow...or not. I think mowing grass at rough height is one of the cheapest, sustainable maintenance practices on the course, as opposed to the herbicide applications and hand weeding that needs to be done to keep those "natural" areas "clean".

Nature abhors a vacuum, generally, but not when you consider vacant soil is always trying to be occupied by a plant.

exactly

[jeffwarne]

Jim,

As far as Pinehurst goes, I'd say "kind of...".

If they wanted to get back to basics, they might not have planted tens of thousands of landscape plants in a bunch of new natural areas. They could have regrassed the roughs and let nature run it's course as to where the grass wants to grow...or not. I think mowing grass at rough height is one of the cheapest, sustainable maintenance practices on the course, as opposed to the herbicide applications and hand weeding that needs to be done to keep those "natural" areas "clean".

+1
Watering less and planting native areas(which still need maintenance) isn't always cheaper.
which is why Pinehurst ended up with grass in the rough in the first place

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - my take was in part an experiment in sensible and reasonable humility. What I mean is: while I don't understand the seemingly excessive maintenances programmes and practices at some of America's great courses,  I'd be foolish not to recognize that those in charge of those courses/clubs are, compared to me, much more  knowledgeable, have much greater experience/institutional memory, are much more invested (both emotionally and financially), understand the wishes and goals of the membership infinitely better, have probably played more great courses in more places around the world than I could ever dream of, and have and take very seriously a duty to manage the resource as best they can.  And if that is all true (and I believe it is), and if (as it seems) those in charge simply do not believe that the great architecture/design is "enough", I have to conclude that it is quite possible they know something about the course that I don't.
Peter     

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I firmly believe that today great architecture is not enough and is often lost while lesser architecture is promoted due to maintenance.  Golf maintenance has fallen victim to the "just because one can one does" syndrome.  Not many businesses can function that way.

[Tom_Doak]

Golf maintenance has fallen victim to the "just because one can one does" syndrome.  Not many businesses can function that way.

Amen to that, brother Mike.

[JESII]

And to further that point...I predict we're a few years from the great awakening when clubs realize they don't need to build those back tees in hopes that Dustin Johnson shows up one day...the rest of the dominoes will fall soon after that moment.

[David_Tepper]

"Golf maintenance has fallen victim to the "just because one can one does" syndrome.  Not many businesses can function that way."

Mike Y. -

While I agree that many golf clubs spend far more than necessary or even desirable on maintenance, I am not sure it is such a bad business strategy.

In an economy where the middle class is shrinking and the 1% is richer than ever, luxury brands of thriving. Some things are easier to sell the more you charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

DT

[Joe Hancock]

Good golf business doesn't always make for a better game of golf.

[Mike_Young]

"Golf maintenance has fallen victim to the "just because one can one does" syndrome.  Not many businesses can function that way."

Mike Y. -

While I agree that many golf clubs spend far more than necessary or even desirable on maintenance, I am not sure it is such a bad business strategy.

In an economy where the middle class is shrinking and the 1% is richer than ever, luxury brands of thriving. Some things are easier to sell the more you charge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

DT

David,
Let me ask it this way.
If a developer were to build a development in a town of 100,000 people and the market study said there would be 500 people who could purchase a house of $750,000 or more, 2500 could purchase a house at $500,000 and 25,000 could purchase a house at $200,000 he would hopefully follow the market study.  He would be capable of building all $750,000 homes and they could have all of the options but if there were only 500 people who could buy them, he made a big mistake.  That's what we keep doing.  The industry scares/convinces boards and developers into thinking if they don't build the best they can with irrigation systems, maintenance buildings, cart paths etc and maintenance equipment then they have done a disservice to their members etc.  Think about it in the mid 1990's.  JN never advertised or promoted daily fee golf because he did not need it.  Anyone doing it was looked down on as building "cheap".  The next thing you know all those dudes were preaching how to build cheaper golf but once they got the contract signed it never happened... 
Do you think the equipment clowns building $500 drivers are just selling to he 1%? 

[BCowan]

Good courses I'd nominate Diamond Springs as a bench mark for other courses.  Width, single cut, and low maintenance fescue for rough.  Thinking form the Green back is the mentality we need to start focusing on in the US.  I really like the OZ maint meld from a far (haven't been there).  Their climate is much more similar to our southern states then the UK is.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Good golf business doesn't always make for a better game of golf.

Ah, but perhaps a better game of golf will always make for a good golf business.

Perhaps?  As long as the owner's commitment is genuinely and simply and actually on the game of golf itself?

[Joe Hancock]

Good golf business doesn't always make for a better game of golf.

Ah, but perhaps a better game of golf will always make for a good golf business.

Perhaps?  As long as the owner's commitment is genuinely and simply and actually on the game of golf itself?

Perhaps, but it really is up to the end user, no?

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, you're probably right.  I can only speak for THIS end user when it comes to a "good game".   

And then too, there are probably many different ideas about what constitutes a "good business". I think the days of someone being satisfied with earning a modest living for himself and his family while the land grows in value over the decades may be long past, if in fact there ever were such days 

Peter 

[David_Tepper]

Mike -

I don't pretend to know the economics and profit margins of the home building business. But, if I could make as much money selling one unit of a luxury product as I could selling 6, 8 or 10 units of a mass-market product, I would prefer the former to the latter. Would you rather own a Ferrari dealership or a Chevrolet dealership?

Believe me, I am sympathetic to what you are saying. Personally, I am a cheapskate, who shops at Ross Stores (on Tuesdays when I get a 10% senior discount ).

But the reality is the market for the ultra-wealthy is a real one, one a savvy businessman should not ignore. Sometimes more is more.

I don't know about $500 drivers, but I bet sales of Miura irons are going up each year.

DT       

[Mike_Young]

Mike -

I don't pretend to know the economics and profit margins of the home building business. But, if I could make as much money selling one unit of a luxury product as I could selling 6, 8 or 10 units of a mass-market product, I would prefer the former to the latter. Would you rather own a Ferrari dealership or a Chevrolet dealership?

Believe me, I am sympathetic to what you are saying. Personally, I am a cheapskate, who shops at Ross Stores (on Tuesdays when I get a 10% senior discount ).

But the reality is the market for the ultra-wealthy is a real one, one a savvy businessman should not ignore. Sometimes more is more.

I don't know about $500 drivers, but I bet sales of Miura irons are going up each year.

DT       

David,
All I'm saying is that there is room for clubs at the top but we have allowed the top to dictate the conditions of many good clubs that don't need the same and it is killing things.  There are 16,000 courses here.  Maybe 2500 can be maintained at the very top, might even be less.  It's no different than your Ferrarri dealership/Chevy dealership comparison. 
As for drivers and Muira irons...good comparison...  Muir knows it has a very small market and lives that way.  TMAG and others try to force it on the consumer and the stockholders and the business suffers...

[BCowan]

I'd rather own a Chevy dealership.  I don't know of any Ferrari dealerships in towns of 100,000, just burbs of big cities.  I think Taylor Made brings in a lot more money then Muira.  Porche I believed did really good revitalizing their company by offering the SUV. 

There are a few undeserved markets out there.  There is only room left for so many destination clubs. 

[David_Tepper]

"All I'm saying is that there is room for clubs at the top but we have allowed the top to dictate the conditions of many good clubs that don't need the same and it is killing things."

Mike -

I understand and sympathize with what you are saying. I know you in the business for real and (too) many of us here are on the sidelines offering semi-useless commentary.

The reality is envy is an aspect of human nature. At times it is one of the less attractive ones.

Ben C. -

I know there is a GCA-er who owns both a Cadillac and Chevrolet dealership. Maybe he will see this thread and comment on which one is easier to run and is more profitable.

With regards to Porsche offering an SUV, that just proves my point. Is Porsche's SUV really any better than the ones from Ford, Chevy, Honda, etc. that cost 1/2 or 2/3's as much? Talk about a Veblen good!

DT     

[BCowan]

DT,

   You are proving my point.  When Porsche released the SUV, owners of Porsches were pissed, they felt as though it would ruin the brand.  They built a vehicle that was affordable by more people (think Henry Ford).  The SUV did so well it infused money into their higher level vehicles that were losing money.      Thus I'm disproving your theory.  Plus some memberships at very highly rated clubs are very very inexpensive.  They have their own identity and don't listen to companies trying to tell them whom to market to and to spend X amount of money on redoing the dinning room for the 3rd time in 30 years.  Now if I owned the Porsche dealership in metro DC area, I'd reconsider.      

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