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Greg Taylor

Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2015, 05:24:35 PM »
15th at Notts/Holinwell ?!




Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2015, 05:32:16 PM »
I think the 4th at Lahinch the Klondike is like that. The hole gets narrower as you get closer plus you have a 35' dune to clear on the second shot.


The Klondike isn't narrow at the green. It's actually pretty open around the green. The driving area is where it's tight.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David_Tepper

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2015, 05:41:37 PM »
#18 at TOC?   ?
 
How so ?

Pat -

You have a fairway 100 yards wide for your tee shot, but you have to decide how you are going to cross the VoS on your 2nd shot, with a pitch or chip or putt. Getting the ball on the green isn't too tough. Getting it close to the hole can be.

Plus you have the pressure of the crowd invariably hanging around the 18th green watching you. ;)

DT 

P.S. You could probably say the same about the 1st at TOC, wide open fairway on your tee shot and much trouble on your 2nd shot.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 06:05:12 PM by David_Tepper »

Carl Rogers

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2015, 08:05:30 PM »
Almost all holes at Pinehurst No.2 would qualify.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2015, 09:05:57 PM »
Short par fives on British links courses can be so amazingly hard!


As just one example, 8 and 9  and 11 at North Berwick can rip you to pieces if not careful on the second shot. 


That fairway bunker at 100 yards on 16 at Pinehurst #2 is death.  And placement on #7 is also super critical. 






Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2015, 09:15:35 PM »
15th ANGC
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2015, 10:34:51 PM »
This is William Flynn's design philosophy, I believe. So practically every hole he designed gets harder as you get closer to the green.
AKA Mayday

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 07:05:14 AM »
#18 at TOC?


Probably every hole at TOC! Maybe that's why it's so universally admired?
Atb

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2015, 07:30:55 AM »
#18 at TOC?


For the gentleness of touch required to negotiate the V.O.S., versus a full wedge that flies into the meat of the green?
Coming in 2024
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Wade Whitehead

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2015, 08:44:10 AM »
Ballyhack #2?




The target on #2 certainly shrinks with each shot played, especially when one of the tougher pins (front left) is used.

That's a good thing, because the distraction of the long view from the tee doesn't allow most people to concentrate on that tee shot.

Players routinely underestimate the second and third shots, which puts them in all kinds of places (bunkers, rough, native grass, and, ultimately, dead long and left of the green).

Great example!

WW

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2015, 08:46:28 AM »
On a related note: The best players understand that, at least in terms of outcome, shots increase in value as a hole is played.  Even if shots on a hole are of equal "difficulty," they become harder because stakes rise.

This is why even a slight increase in actual difficulty from one shot to the next causes so much trouble for so many players.  It's multiplied without the golfer even knowing it.

WW

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2015, 11:41:33 AM »
#14 ANGC
It's all about the golf!

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2015, 04:40:08 PM »
This is William Flynn's design philosophy, I believe. So practically every hole he designed gets harder as you get closer to the green.
Having played the Cascades twice, I would agree.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2015, 08:01:39 PM »
The first place I thought of when I saw this topic was Ballybunion.  It's not entirely true; as long as you're straight in to those greens you are fine.  But miss one to the side and you'd rath be 100 yards back in the fairway.


The best example might be the 9th hole at Ballybunion. I always felt the best second shot - risk and reward considered - is to lay up just short. Not easy to make par from there, but at least it eliminated double bogey or worse.
Tim Weiman

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2015, 10:03:05 AM »
The 3rd hole a Pacific Dunes.  Generous off the tee.  It gets more narrow as you go.  I've always thought that 3rd shot into the green is very difficult to judge, especially when the wind is up.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2015, 03:17:43 PM »
I think the 4th at Lahinch the Klondike is like that. The hole gets narrower as you get closer plus you have a 35' dune to clear on the second shot.


Well the second shot is harder than the tee shot since you can't see the green, etc. but once you're past the dune the hole is pretty flat and simple so that's more of an example of a hole that gets harder in the middle but is easier on the tee and the green :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 05:09:07 PM »
I think the 4th at Lahinch the Klondike is like that. The hole gets narrower as you get closer plus you have a 35' dune to clear on the second shot.


Well the second shot is harder than the tee shot since you can't see the green, etc. but once you're past the dune the hole is pretty flat and simple so that's more of an example of a hole that gets harder in the middle but is easier on the tee and the green :)


Unless you hit the narrow fairway in what is usually a cross wind, you are pretty much screwed on this hole.  If you do hit the fairway, the dune is not nearly as much of an issue.  I wish the fairway was 10 yards wider, because it's borderline unfairness leads to lots of ball searching. 

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2015, 05:39:48 PM »


14th at Pebble Beach.



« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 05:45:03 PM by Kyle Henderson »
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Charlie_Bell

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2015, 09:24:49 PM »
Don't they say that the 2nd shot at #2 of Royal Dornoch is the hardest shot on the course?   Par 3.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2015, 08:43:49 AM »
I agree that 3 East at Ridgewood is a great par 5 but I don't think it gets harder the closer you get to the hole. 8 West does due to the slope of the approach:









The approach on 3 East does not really get harder

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 08:51:26 AM by Bill Brightly »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2015, 02:00:03 PM »
I think we are seeing a pretty obvious trend here - most holes get harder as you approach the hole.  And even holes with challenging tee shots (at least all well designed holes) always offer continued challenge and interest as one approaches the hole. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:42:54 PM by Mark_Fine »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2015, 03:30:14 PM »
I think about 8 holes have been cited...how do you figure most holes get harder based on these suggestions?


In general, I'll take the shorter shot other than the rare occasion that I know it will not be to my benefit...

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2015, 04:12:17 PM »
Jim,
Do you disagree with me?  I doubt you do.  Let's take Pine Valley as one example since we both know that course well.  Do you disagree with my point?  How about Winged Foot or Sand Hills or Pebble Beach or Olympic or Crystal Downs or Huntingdon Valley or Brookline or Shinnecock Hills or Merion,..  Need I continue  :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:14:05 PM by Mark_Fine »

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2015, 05:42:09 PM »
Hopefully most every par 5 I have ever built.  Just the way I was raised I guess, but that would be my intent.

Lester

Dean DiBerardino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes that get harder as you get closer to the hole
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2015, 10:01:29 PM »
Almost all holes at Pinehurst No.2 would qualify.


+1

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