[Adrian_Stiff]

All you really need to do is create a larger 'best of' perhaps to 500 regardless of the price and then just filter out by price.


Eventually Clubs like Cleeve Hill will win best course in the UK under £19.


I think the real golf price barriers are at £20, £30, £40 and £50 anything plus those prices are real special treats.


The biggest section just want low price say sub £20.


The £30 section are probably members of clubs but resent high prices and look for the best value deals.


The £40 and £50 are similar to the thirtypounders but like a bit more quality and like to play different courses each time.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

There is precious little out there worth playing with green fees under £40 in high season.  At £20 there isn't a list.  The point of list is first and foremost is about quality.  I can't see any point in a list where folks know the courses are dog tracks.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I totally agree no point in playing dogtracks. There are plenty of courses worth playing sub £40 (full rack rate). There are some sub £20. Cleeve Hill is £18 Midweek £20 Weekend (not under £20 if it is weekend rate) and your beloved Kington chips in at £28 and £34.


Point being exactly what you say. Firstly you make the list by quality. All you then need is the price. You merely filter out the ones at £51 or more or at any price bar you want..

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

I do not think you should factor in travel expenses, etc. as these will vary depending on where you live.

Adrian,

I agree totally with your premise that first you make a list by quality and then you need the price to set against it. Indeed, I have said just this several times on this thread already.

Sean,

it is difficult to know what you are saying as you strike an idea down as useless in one sentence only to use said useless idea to back up your point of view with the next line. If a 'value for money' rating using the factual cost of greenfee set against a quality rating is not valid then a 'quality' rating based up on opinion is no more valid. Yet you dismiss the former and vaunt the latter. You have stated on many occasions how some top end courses are high quality yet the greenfees are set at a price above that which you are willing to pay, ergo you do not find them to be value for money.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

When I say a course is too expensive that is a personal judgement for my wallet.  It is not a blanket statement for all. 

Its hard enough deciphering quality let alone trying to do the impossible and devise formulas for value.  That is not something which I think has much truck across a wide spread of golfers.  Its much easier to set a limit and pick the best courses under that limit. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

The formula is simple;


Firstly list the best courses.
With that list add the price to each course.


What that will show you is;


The best course in the UK regardless of price is.
The best course in the UK at under <insert your price>.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

That isn't formula for value     Its simply the best courses under a price limit...which is what I have been advocating all along.

Ciao 

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon


When I say a course is too expensive that is a personal judgement for my wallet.  It is not a blanket statement for all. 

Yet this is a judgement by you on whether it is worth paying or not ergo a judgement on its 'value for money'


Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

I just borrowed Duncan's list as an example and by deviding the quality score by the GF you arrive at a 'value for money' rating (I rounded up or down to the nearest second decimal). The ranking by quality is in brackets.

                                                       GF            Quality  vfm

1  (1)        Tenby                          £30.00        6.50     0.22
2  (15)      North Manchester    £25.00        5.40     0.21
3  (2)        Reddish Vale              £30.00        6.10     0.20
4 (19)       Oakmere Park           £26.00        5.20     0.20
5 (20)       Halifax                        £25.00        5.10     0.20
6 (9)         Crosland Heath         £32.00        5.70    0.18
7 (12)       Brampton                  £32.00        5.60     0.18
8 (3)         Cavendish                  £35.00        6.00    0.17
9 (8 )         Fleetwood                  £35.00        5.80    0.17
10 (10)    Romiley                        £35.00        5.70   0.16
11 (13)    Morecambe                 £35.00        5.50   0.16
12 (6)      Bramall Park                £40.00        5.90   0.15
13 (7)      Carlisle                          £40.00        5.80   0.15
14 (4)      Pleasington                  £42.00        6.00   0.14
15 (11)    Sutton Coldfield          £40.00        5.60   0.14
16 (14)    Lancaster                     £39.50        5.50   0.14
17 (18)    Oswestry                     £40.00        5.30   0.13
18 (5)      Conwy                          £50.00        6.00   0.12
19 (17)    Bramhall                      £44.00        5.40   0.12
20 (16)    Mottram Hall               £50.00        5.40   0.11

So a course charging £100 for a greenfee would need to score 22.0 points to be as  good value for money as Tenby. Of course other factors such as location, popularity and facilities to name but a few would also have an effect on the GF price.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

Of course I make a judgement for myself...don't we all?  The point is we all have different thresholds and different ideas of which courses to push the boat out with. 

I guess if your formula floats yer boat then very fine.  For mine, I would prefer not to combine two subjective lists when its hard enough to devise one.  To me, the value aspect is far more subjective (at least we have a list of some 150 or so courses which are in the conversation for "best"...for value every damn course in the country is a candidate) so I would just forget about it.  Eliminate the word "value" and instead call it "Best Courses Under....." 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Adrian


There is precious little out there worth playing with green fees under £40 in high season.  At £20 there isn't a list.  The point of list is first and foremost is about quality.  I can't see any point in a list where folks know the courses are dog tracks.


Ciao

Sean


I nearly jumped right in on your "at £20 there isn't a list" comment, to give a long list of courses up north that I played on several occasions that are great fun and under £20, and then I thought, are they really under £20 ? If you look at the website, the rack rate is probably greater although not that much greater but in reality when do you ever pay the rack rate ? I remember pitching up at Kingussie, and they would only take £7.50 from me as they thought the greens weren't the best. I've played Cullen, Moray New, Forres, Buckpool, Strathlene, Spey Bay, Hopeman, Duff House Royal and even Elgin, all on several occasions for £20 or less. Most times you don't have to ask for the reduced rate, they just give it to you. It makes you wonder how realistic the rack rates are on the websites.


Now I suppose the other question is just how good are these courses ? They certainly aren't dog tracks and I'd have thought Elgin and DHR at least are more than contenders if you use Ladybank as a benchmark. I suppose what I'm getting at there are pockets of great value golf out there, away from the masses, that are there to be played.


Niall


ps. supplementary question, for £20 a round, how many clunker holes will you put up with ?     

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I agree with you on the point of it is all subjective when it comes to 'quality' but the added factor which produces 'value for money' (VFM) is factual and not opinion. If a VFM rating has a failing then it is the 'quality' part of the formula that is questionable. If you reject VFM rating then you must also reject 'quality' rating. A person not doing so holds an invalid position.

The reason I have brought up VFM is because it is the OP Topic Title where as the I pluck a figure out of the ether 'best under' idea is not.

 

[Sean_A]

Jon

I am not sure what you think "value" means, but the term is absolutely subjective.  Its an evaluation or estimate of the value of something...in this case the value of green fees.  For me, good value is a willingness to pay full whack.  Excellent value is thinking I would pay more if asked.  Poor value is an unwillingness to pay full whack. Your idea of the three may be completely different. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.


If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?

[Sean_A]

Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.

If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?

Adam

The concept of value is about a personal combination of price and quality...a combo which is different for each and every person...I think often on each and every day...depending on how the course was presented etc. Many people could care less about paying £150 for a game whereas others would baulk at the idea of £75 for a game....for the same course.  I can't see how it is possible that one formula can even begin to cover the gambit of personal opinions concerning value. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon's right Sean. If you accept that, in some way, value is Fn(quality,price) then the price is set. Only the quality is subjective.


If you don't accept this, what else comes into value other than quality and price?

Adam


The concept of value is about a personal combination of price and quality...a combo which is different for each and every person...I think often on each and every day...depending on how the course was presented etc. Many people could care less about paying £150 for a game whereas others would baulk at the idea of £75 for a game....for the same course.  I can't see how it is possible that one formula can even begin to cover the gambit of personal opinions concerning value. 


Ciao

Sean - You simply have a ranking depending on nothing but quality. You also have the PRICE which is objectve since it becomes a fact. You could have any amount of additional columns, for which in column A: courses are deleted (unranked from the UNDER £100 LIST) in column B courses are deleted (unranked from the UNDER £75 LIST) column C could be £50 and D could be £30.  Thus a course ranked number 96 in the main list might be 45 in the under £100 list  29 in the under £75 list  14 in the under £50 list and NUMBER ONE in the under £30 list.

[Mark Chaplin]

Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.

[Andrew Simpson]

As we are talking in The UK where would Doak rated courses stand with GF rates as a starting point?
I've no idea and an waiting on my CG V1 to get a start, a few best rated and price down to a few cheapest and rating?
If you can start with something that fits there you can move it to non CG rated courses, no?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.

Life is unfortunately very different away from the very top clubs charging £100 or more.

The pro at a typical second or third tier club spends a good proportion of his time fielding telephone enquiries from potential visitors, all of whom are  trying to negotiate a deal and are playing one club off against another. The "rack rate" is paid by almost no-one.

Across huge swathes of the country, outside of the elite clubs it is increasingly difficult  to attract visitors at more than £20 a round. Clubs with healthy memberships can get by fine without casual visitors, but membership levels at most clubs are in decline, making green fees a vital source of income.

Why are membership levels in decline?  Amongst other reasons, because casual golfers can play pretty well wherever they want for £20 a round! The curse of TeeOffTimes!

It truly is a death spiral...

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,

spot on with the assessment of clubs discounting GFs being suicide.

Sean,

value for money is something that is assessed for almost every product that is sold on the market from toothbrushes to Ferraris. The concept is well practiced and well accepted. However, what you are talking about is the price a person is willing to pay which is dependent on their wealth and possible individual preferences but it is not a judgement of value for money.

Jon

[jeffwarne]

Using the "most expensive weekday rack rate" would seem a very oxymoronic way to rate courses on a value for money scale as nearly anyone looking for value doesn't pay the rack rates.
Most times for my groups, the only time the rack rate ever comes in is when using a "2 for 1" or 50%  discount such as Open Fairways. Nearly always there is a better rate available, but generally not as low as 2 for 1.
A[size=78%]s Niall states, it's generally not something you have to negotiate for.[/size]

[Rich Goodale]

For those who think that under 20 squid courses are all dog tracks check out the following:

http://www.fifegolftrust.co.uk/

Of the 7 courses (all at or under 14 squid) for 18+ holes, in order of value for money:

1.  Kinghorn.  Old Tom Morris design, scrunched in WWII to make room for an airfield, but still good and very linksy and quirky, with (currently) the best greens in Fife.  Good modern clubhouse.
2.  Dunnikier Park.  Built in the 70's as a possible Open qualifier, this is a solid parkland course that has dramatically improved in presentation over the past few years.  Good old fashioned clubhouse.
3.  Scoonie.  That course you first see on the right when driving on the Standing Stanes road towards Leven, Lundin and Elie.  Some very good holes, particularly the latter ones which abut Leven.  "Clubhouse" only to be entered to play your green fee.
4.  Glenrothes.  Similar to Dunnikier, with many good holes and excellent views.  Decent working man's clubhouse.
5.  Aucterderran.  The famous "Scarred Nine."  9-holes built over coal mines, by miners and used by ex-miners.  3-5 of the holes would not be out of place on the best of the UK heathland courses.  Like Scoonie, the club is an afterthought, but has some great photos if what working man's golf in Fife was like 100 years ago.
6.  Cowdenbeath.  Modern track that is worth the 10 squid green fee, if you are adventurous.  Another small cinder block clubhouse which serves calofiric food.
7.  Lochore.  Modern track with some nice loch views, integrated with a wildlife center.  Never been in the clubhouse.

Enjoy

Rich

[Sean_A]

Rihc

Sure, there are some good courses for under £20, but 100 or even 50?  Its a non-starter idea.

Jon

Perhaps we have been at cross purposes, but because any list of the sort we are talking about will be comprises 100% of good courses the definition of value I would use is the following...hence the idea of something being over-priced is very common.


The worth of something compared to the price paid or asked for it:[/size]at £12.50 the book is good value[/size][COUNT NOUN]:[/size] [/color]North American the wine represents a good value for $17.95[/font][/font][/size]

Adrian

I agree with your idea (and have said so at least twice previously), but it is not a value formula as Jon proposed.  Its simply a best of list with cost limits.  To me this is by far the easiest and best method to use as it concentrates solely on quality at a certain price. 

Jeff

I don't see how it is possible to publish a list which is based on the cheapest price some guy allegedly received at some point.  All discounts based on discount schemes, pro affiliations, guest of member, season, opens, county card, reciprocals, society (usually for 8 or more players) etc should not be included because any one price can be misleading due to very limited availability, etc etc etc.  Prices must be verifiable for the mag and easy to convey on the list.  If a punter is interested in playing a course he will do his own investigation into costs.  The list included in this thread is meant to offer a flavour of what is available to punters for £100 or less...not be an exhaustive expose on pricing.  Using the costing as the editor chose is the only way to obtain a consistent measurement across the board. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Never even crossed my mind you'd ask for a discount on published green fees, not that I usually pay a green fee more than 4 rounds a year on a boys trip.

Mark

In truth, it's not something I'm in the habit of asking for however when I was up north the Press & Journal used to do deals with "local" clubs and publish them every Spring and Autumn for certain periods. They probably still do. I used to take advantage of the deals (usually £12 a round from memory) to play courses I wouldn't normally play and more often than not I came away having discovered, if not a great course, certainly some entertaining golf.

As I was travelling about a fair bit with the clubs in the back of the car, on several occasions I stopped off at a club where the course looked interesting and asked whether they were part of the P&J scheme. Some weren't but knew of the deal and were happy to offer the discounted price. The green fee at Kingussie was actually a discount on the discount. Basically you don't need to hussle to get deals which leads me to believe that the published rack rate is often the exception rather than the norm.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Duncan I appreciate Deal is at the higher end of clubs but interestingly since the recession in 2009 our green fee rate is £50 higher but revenue has remained steady and membership is very strong possibly because it's very good value against the green fee multiplier. We even raised the joining fee for country members with no adverse effect on applications.

I didn't agree with raising green fees so steeply but was proved wrong.

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