New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money"

[Marty Bonnar]

A couple of observations. Nothing more.
Ladybank. I have a couple of good mates who are members so I've played it lots over the years. It's a lovely place to be and used to have awesome catering, but, to use an Americanism, it ain't all that. There's maybe three or four great holes, ten or twelve okays and three or four clunkers. Like so many of Fife's old courses, it used to host local Open qualifying, which gave it some kudos, but that's gone now. It's also still highly regarded amongst the chattering classes, so is one of the few courses in Scotland to still have a waiting list for membership.
Blairgowrie. I waited about twenty years before an opportunity finally arose to play it. Needless to say, my anticipation levels were off the scale. The reputation, the MacKenzie connection, the photos I'd seen, that fabulous clubhouse.
I've never been more disappointed in anything in my life. I was bored to death by about the eighth hole. Sure, it's a lovely place to play golf and was in very fine condition, but there seemed to be very little Mackenzie left in it, lots of repetitive shots and very little quirk. I enjoyed my day, but I'm not rushing back.

F.

[Sean_A]

David

Thanks for the kudos, but I think the other chaps are well versed in GB&I courses. 

I am not at all sure why Ladybank is so high up the list...just one of those things. 

My top 10 (at the time of the ranking) of which 4 made the top 10.. so not bad....

North Berwick (gone over £100 for 2016  )
St Enodoc
Alwoodley
Woking
Notts
Sacred 9
Ganton
Burnham
Little Aston
Pennard

Merry Christmas

[Thomas Dai]

It would be interesting to see a listing like this but with the winter greenfees used instead of the main season ones.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Atb

Wouldn't most fees come down in a fairly regular manner, meaning the threshold would need to be dropped to £50 or whatever?  Otherwise, many of the big names jump back into the picture. 

Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50.  It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had.  Maybe it would only be 50 courses to start.  I bet there are less than 40 courses on the current list at £50 or below. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I bet there are less than 40 courses on the current list at £50 or below. 

Actually, 27.

[Thomas Dai]

Would the order of the 27 change plus, to make the list up the 100 again, which courses would 'replace' the 73 that drop out?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50.  It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had. 

+1

No small panel is likely to have the necessary in-depth local knowledge of such courses across the country, but a wide network of local enthusiasts most certainly would.

Surely contributors to GCA comprise just such a network? For a little seasonal fun why don't we all compile our own top twenty list of courses we know charging under £50 - ranked according to an agreed scale - which can then be consolidated into a meaningful national survey?


Here's my contribution;


1      Tenby                          £30.00        6.50
2      Reddish Vale                  £30.00        6.10
3      Cavendish                  £35.00        6.00
4      Pleasington                  £42.00        6.00
5      Conwy                          £50.00        6.00
6      Bramall Park                  £40.00        5.90
7      Carlisle                          £40.00        5.80
8      Fleetwood                  £35.00        5.80
9      Crosland Heath               £32.00        5.70
10      Romiley                          £35.00        5.70
11      Sutton Coldfield               £40.00        5.60
12      Brampton                  £32.00        5.60
13      Morecambe                  £35.00        5.50
14      Lancaster                  £39.50        5.50
15      North Manchester            £25.00        5.40
16      Mottram Hall                  £50.00        5.40
17      Bramhall                  £44.00        5.40
18      Oswestry                  £40.00        5.30
19      Oakmere Park               £26.00        5.20
20      Halifax                          £25.00        5.10

Most people seemed to have played Cavendish so I used this at a 6 as my benchmark and rated other courses in comparison.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

I think you can see the problem with a big panel when comparing our lists. They are very different because our experiences are very different.  Most people will be familiar with 2nd/3rd tier courses in their general area, but not in other parts of the country or very hit and miss in other parts of the country.  A small panel has a chance to engender an element of trust between panellists. 

My top 20 based on quality, not preference.

Kington  £28
Perranporth  £36
Cavendish  £26
Leckford Old  £25 (for 18)
Cumberwell Park Orange  £35 (for 18)
Carnoustie Burnside  £45
Reddish Vale  £30
Sutton Coldfield Winter  £35
Harborne  £45
Cleeve Cloud  £18
Oxford  £28
West Cornwall  £37
Yelverton  £30
Church Stretton  £30
Seascale  £35
Golspie  £45
Gullane #3  £33
Painswick  £20
Temple  £35
Players Club Stranahan  £20
_________________________________
Shiskine ?
North Wales  £37
Stonehaven  £32
Musselburgh Old  ?
Ashburnham  £45
B&Y  £40
Nefyn & District  £46
Stinchcombe Hill  £25
Minch Old  £19
Worcester  £40
Porthmadog  ?
Tadmarton Heath  £40
B&B Channel  £20 (all day)
Canterbury  £40

Askernish  £35
Bude & N Cornwall  £28
Seaton Carew  £42
Fraserburgh  £45

Plus Boat of Garten  £45

Note: Courses with green fees costing £49 or £50 were dropped as I expect they will go up for 2016. 

Note 2: Courses in Blue are ranked in the National Club Golfer Magazine...I haven't seen them or not in a long time, but I suspect they have a good chance to be in my top 20. 

Duncan...according to the mag piece Tenby & Conwy are more than £50 for the most expensive weekday fee.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

A few more not mentioned bynothers to add to the mix - these are the most expensive greenfees, cheaper deals are also often available

South, West and Mid Wales -




Cardigan £30 mw, £40 we - clifftop, great seaside views
Welshpool £25 mw, £30 we - hilltop quirk by Mr Braid and mowed by sheep
Clyne £40 mw, £50 we - moorland with sheep etc
Borth & Ynnnnymejig £40 - out and back links
Llandrindod Wells - prices are slightly confusing, might be as low as £12 mw - hilltop with better views than Kington!


England -


South Staffs - £43 mw - immaculate parkland, long yardage, well worth a visit
Tavistock - £30 mw & we - upland/moorland including ponies and cattle and sheep


And a couple of UK splendid 9-holers -


St Olaf at Cruden Bay - £25 mw, £35 we - these are play all day prices
Channel course at Burnham - £25 for twice around


Atb

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike I'm not sure what you are saying about the weekend visitor rate at Deal. The club despite ever increasing member and member guest play chooses to allow limited visitor play on weekend afternoons. Are you saying we should cut prices and fill up the course to the detriment of the membership?

I joined the club in 1998 and since then subs have tripled, visitor fees have tripled and the member guest fee has gone up 50% from £20 to £30. Fortunately the guest fee is a member benefit so it don't want it to rise further!!

David as for 5 hour rounds members tend to avoid the visitor times!

[Sean_A]

Chappers

To be honest I would prefer only dormy guests allowed weekend access to advance tee times at my club. Otherwise, tee times would only be available on the day and at full rate no matter the season.  The course needs a chance to recover!

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Over time I would like to see high season threshold drop to about £50.  It would take a lot more knowledge of wee provincial courses, but I am convinced a very cool list of courses could be had. 

+1

No small panel is likely to have the necessary in-depth local knowledge of such courses across the country, but a wide network of local enthusiasts most certainly would.

Surely contributors to GCA comprise just such a network? For a little seasonal fun why don't we all compile our own top twenty list of courses we know charging under £50 - ranked according to an agreed scale - which can then be consolidated into a meaningful national survey?


Here's my contribution;


1      Tenby                          £30.00        6.50
2      Reddish Vale                  £30.00        6.10
3      Cavendish                  £35.00        6.00
4      Pleasington                  £42.00        6.00
5      Conwy                          £50.00        6.00
6      Bramall Park                  £40.00        5.90
7      Carlisle                          £40.00        5.80
8      Fleetwood                  £35.00        5.80
9      Crosland Heath               £32.00        5.70
10      Romiley                          £35.00        5.70
11      Sutton Coldfield               £40.00        5.60
12      Brampton                  £32.00        5.60
13      Morecambe                  £35.00        5.50
14      Lancaster                  £39.50        5.50
15      North Manchester            £25.00        5.40
16      Mottram Hall                  £50.00        5.40
17      Bramhall                  £44.00        5.40
18      Oswestry                  £40.00        5.30
19      Oakmere Park               £26.00        5.20
20      Halifax                          £25.00        5.10

Most people seemed to have played Cavendish so I used this at a 6 as my benchmark and rated other courses in comparison.

Duncan,

the list is still flawed in my book. Value for money is not best course score under a certain greenfee cost but the cost per point. Halifax comes in at just under £5 per point where as Mottram Hall is over £9 so far less value for money.

For a course charging £100 to be as good value for money as Halifax it would need to be scoring around 20 points and how many would do that.

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

Fair point Jon, but for most golfers  in the UK £50 is at the limits of what they are prepared to pay for anything less than a top 50 course. 99% of golfers wouldn't pay £100 for a round, even at Muirfield or Birkdale. In my area it's hard  for any club, no matter how good the course, to sell green fees for more than £25!

A list of good quality courses under £50 would be a great asset.

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Doesn't your formula assume that the ranking score is linear (and most are not) and also that value for money is a linear function?  Again, I doubt that is really true.  The fact is that value for money is entirely subjective, which makes this sort of ranking so difficult.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Doesn't your formula assume that the ranking score is linear (and most are not) and also that value for money is a linear function?  Again, I doubt that is really true.  The fact is that value for money is entirely subjective, which makes this sort of ranking so difficult.

Mark,

yes it does but then I would assume that all courses in the same list are judged through the same criteria and so the scores reached are valid in comparison to each other. It is also the points ranking of the formula which is subjective as the greenfee cost is a given. This means that value for money is also a subjective but then any type of ranking is so thus value for money is no less valid than the points ranking it is based on. What it does show is that the higher priced courses are not as good value for money than many lower priced courses.

Duncan,

all valid points. I used value for money as it is the OP title for this thread. As such I do not believe a limit on the cost of the greenfee is a point to take into account. Indeed, I would imagine that such a ranking including all courses would show that any course with a GF above £75 would have difficulty making the top 200. Food for thought!!!

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

In a ranking of courses charging a rack rate of under £50 I wouldn't include a "value for money" component.

Apart from anything else, the rack-rate green fee is almost totally meaningless in many cases. A good example is Tenby. Their website doesn't actually list the summer green fee. If you dig down however, into their BRS booking system you find that their standard midweek summer fee is £60. This is discounted at most times to either £25 or £40. Below is the example of May next year.

http://www.brsgolf.com/tenby/visitor_month.php?course_id=1&d_date=2016-5-01&nav_date=2016-01-01

So what is the green fee at Tenby? It is quite clear that there is no need to pay more than £40, so why class it as being £60?

We are planning on doing something very similar at Reddish Vale, Hike the rack-rate up and then discount down via the on-line booking system at the quieter times of day.

Leave visitors feeling as though they've got a bargain without sacrificing any revenue and juggle visitor rounds into the quieter afternoon periods, so keeping members happy.

I suspect that the published green fee at many second tier courses will become increasingly meaningless as everyone utilises the BRS system or something similar to adapt their fees to supply and demand. Many clubs also give their pro almost total discretion to negotiate green fees on a case by case basis.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

For mine, the most expensive weekday rate is the rate I would use for anything like this sort of endeavour.  Once we get into the business of discounted fees as the "real" rate it never ends and we end up in twilight rates etc.  If you get a deal great, but mags have to be realistic in what they publish and its too complicated to list all the discounts etc.   

Unlike Jon, I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions.  Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else. 

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I agree. You've got to have some kind of benchmark.

If such a listing found favour I'm sure that clubs such as Tenby which rely to a large extent on holiday golfers would adjust their rack rates slightly to ensure inclusion. As most of their visitor rounds are clearly below that level anyway it would not compromise  revenue.

[Ed Tilley]

A few more not mentioned bynothers to add to the mix - these are the most expensive greenfees, cheaper deals are also often available.


Atb

On reflection, this is the problem with the list and why it is flawed. I very rarely pay the absolute full rate as I look for deals so this list is not accurate. For example, playing St. Enodoc before 9.30 reduces the fee to £45. Saunton green fee after 2.30 is £45. Also , in August, the green fee is £50, or £160 for a 4 ball, and £35 after 2.30. i'm arranging a Sat/Sun trip next August playing 2.30 and 10.50 where green fees at Saunton are £75 each in total - the £80 rate is irrelevant for me.


I would be more interested with a list of how you can play great courses for less than £50 as this would be much more useful.

[JJShanley]

I picked up a copy of NCG at Craigielaw on Monday.  FWIW, I read that they will publish a "next 50" list in the next issue. 

[Thomas Dai]

Even some of the big name courses in GB&I are accessable with lower prices if you do enough research. Twightlight or earlybird, shoulder season, winter season, open comps etc.
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions.  Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else. 

Ciao

Sean,

How is trying to devise a value formula any less valid than a formula for quality of the course. At least the top rate GF is an actual defined fact where as the rating you seem to accept as valid is based much more on opinion with very little actual solid facts. Why is £50 the correct cut off point rather than £48 or £45 or any other figure randomly plucked out of the ether?

New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money" is the theme of this thread so how do you rate that if you do not include the varying costs between courses of their top rate greenfee into the equation? If the value for money rating is ever invalidated then it is by the contrary nature of course ratings.

Jon

[Andrew Simpson]

This is a great idea, ah, but never mind a rating system or a value rating, agreeing the cost is a major stumbling block!


I can't wait :-)

[Sean_A]

I would simply set the top rate and rank the best courses under that rate. Trying devise a value formula will raise more questions.  Its easier to understand Best Courses Under £50 than anything else. 

Ciao

Sean,

How is trying to devise a value formula any less valid than a formula for quality of the course. At least the top rate GF is an actual defined fact where as the rating you seem to accept as valid is based much more on opinion with very little actual solid facts. Why is £50 the correct cut off point rather than £48 or £45 or any other figure randomly plucked out of the ether?

New Rankings of GB Courses by "Value for Money" is the theme of this thread so how do you rate that if you do not include the varying costs between courses of their top rate greenfee into the equation? If the value for money rating is ever invalidated then it is by the contrary nature of course ratings.

Jon

Jon

The formula for value is easy...set a cut off point.  I don't see much value in coming up with a tortured formula for value or quality for that matter.  All formulas do is provide fake numerical "evidence" for what our guts and brains are telling us.  I always say the most important aspect of value is quality.  A cheap mediocre course which we don't look forward to playing doesn't provide good value...it provides good opportunity to play.  I don't see any reason in setting a limit and adjusting ranking based on price to quality.  Its way too difficult and arbitrary to devise and the results will be "fixed" to one's preferences anyway.  Save time and just go with your preferences 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

When calculating 'value for money' should the time and cost of travelling and staying and food and various sorts of beverages be included in the calculation? Even time off work (unless retired)? Just asking.
Atb