[David_Tepper]

Delighted to see Golspie at #74 on the list, one spot ahead of Garland's Bude & North Cornwall.

[Sean_A]

C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! 

Not me   

Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc. 

The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise. 

Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.

Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.

I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close. 

Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well. 

I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list.  Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.

David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise). 

All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned. 

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

I did think it was ironic that the first page after the end of the list of courses was a massive picture of Nefyn - a course that didn't make it on to the list.

We can nitpick. I only had a couple - Ladybank (which I haven't played so what do I know), and Broadstone which was ranked as the 69th best course by quality, way lower than Ferndown which is just plain wrong. Also no Mullion, but then not many people have played it.

A very interesting exercise though.

[Duncan Cheslett]

C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! 

Not me   

Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc. 

The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise. 

Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.

Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.

I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close. 

Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well. 

I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list.  Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.

David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise). 

All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned. 

Ciao

Sean,

The article mentions the panel meeting at Formby to iron out the final rankings. Do I take it that you weren't part of this beano?

[Rich Goodale]

I've played 35-40 of these courses, and all of them (with the possible exception of Gullane #3) are Doak 5-7s/Richelin 1* courses that are a much of a muchness ("Rating" wise).  The only thing that separates them in the methodology is the green fee and the poshness.  Doh!

I propose that my favo(u)rite value for money course is the infamous "Scarred Nine" which wipes all of those Doak 8 wannabies into the cludgie.  At £10/9x2 holes, and with at least 6 of those holes hidden gems I would play this course 24/7 compared to even Silloth, one of my faves, for various reasons which are not hard to understand, if you really think what is important to you, as a golfer and an architecture afficionado.

Ricardo

[Sean_A]

C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! 

Not me   

Its pretty obvious Silloth wasn't anywhere near my #1 choice...that was always going to be between North Berwick and St Enodoc. 

The great thing about a list like this, is over the course of 5 years, the likes of North Berwick, Ganton, Woking, Little Aston etc will slowly (or quickly) drop out....thereby leaving space for other courses which deserve some praise. 

Southerndown being rated so low is a surprise...I think it would make my top 25.

Not that I think the course is any good (if ever there was a dumb blonde), but I am surprised there is no Nefyn on the list.

I would have thought Westward Ho! would have had a chance for top 10...not even close. 

Broadstone near the end of the pile is pretty shocking as well. 

I would have thought Seacroft and Seascale would be very close in the list.  Seacroft is probably more steady, but Seascale owns the bulk of the best holes.

David - I too was happy to see Golspie and Bude make the list...same for Gullane 3 (this was a big surprise). 

All in all, there are a lot of very cool courses mentioned. 

Ciao

Sean,

The article mentions the panel meeting at Formby to iron out the final rankings. Do I take it that you weren't part of this beano?

Duncan

That is correct, I missed the Formby pow wow so didn't get the opportunity to meet the other panellists or better discover their particular tastes. 

I played about 70 of the final list and agree with Rihc that the bulk of the quality level is Doak 5/6....so a very high standard.  Also like Rihc, I think the Sacred 9 one of the very best in this group. Its in my top 10 favourites regardless of price.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan

That is correct, I missed the Formby pow wow so didn't get the opportunity to meet the other panellists or better discover their particular tastes. 

That's a pity.

I suspect that in particular you'd get along well with Ed Battye. His course reviews on his excellent and very useful Golf Empire website are informative and insightful.

http://www.golfempire.co.uk/golf-course-reviews/golf-course-reviews.htm

He'd fit in well on this board.

[Rich Goodale]

C'mon Sean, confess. You wrote the review of Silloth, didn't you !?! 

Also like Rihc, I think the Sacred 9 one of the very best in this group. Its in my top 10 favourites regardless of price.

Ciao

Sean

"Scarred 9" was not a tyop.  It refers to a place far far away from the fens of Cambridge (I can hear the theme to Star Wars as I think of this magical place....)

Hicr

[Ruediger Meyer]

This is a strange formula. They ranked 150 courses from 1 to 150 and then just added the greenfee to it and the courses are ranked according to the result. So if the best course costs 70 Pounds and the 5th best costs 65 Pounds it is ranked higher. The best thing is: If you are a golfer from outside the UK and would do the same ranking in Euro or Dollar it would give a completely different ranking.

[jeffwarne]

I enjoyed the piece on Maurice Bembridge.  One of those names you hear, but from a time before there was a true Euro Tour.

Ciao

Thanks for the heads up.Great article. 1974 was my first Masters.Amazing how different things were then for the players.
Imagine being unable to afford to take your clubs to Australia.


What a fantastic magazine

[Jon Wiggett]

£100 greenfee being seen affordable for the average golfer, ha ha ha ha ha. Wht planet do these guys live on? Some interesting courses in the list and nice to see new names in there though.

As for value for money. It is not rocket science. Just judge how good the course is based on none monetary grounds and then divide the result by the greenfee and you get how many points to the pound. Higher the points per pound the better the value.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

Its even more simple for me.  Do I like the course enough to pay the green fee?  There can be no value without quality so all questions of value rely mostly on the quality (as I see it) of the product.  I don't give a damn if Joe Bloggs muni costs a tenner...if the course sucks the value sucks. 

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Read the review on Silloth - great picture by the way. Had to laugh when I read "If forced to find fault, the short par 3 9th is too fiddly.."

"Too fiddly"? 9 Silloth is one EPIC golf hole!!

Fiddly! They obviously didn't play it when the wind was blowing hard. That is one tough, but great little "fiddly" hole.

[Niall C]

I dug out My Golf Week Britain & Ireland Top 1,000 Courses book with the section on 50 Best Value Courses which I've listed below. This list dates from 1999 and is supposedly reader produced although they don't say how. Anyway some interesting choices, some of which I've not played and some I haven't heard of which interest me the most. For example the two Welsh scrabble entrants at no. 13 and 14, does anyone know anything about them ?


1.   Silloth on Solway
2.   Perranporth
3.   Boat of Garten
4.   Tenby
5.   Isle of Purbeck
6.   Southerness
7.   Kingussie
8.   Machrie Hotel
9.   Burnham & Berrow
10.   Royal St Davids
11.   Dooks
12.   Hayling Island
13.   Llanymynech
14.   Borth & Ynslas
15.   Carlow
16.   Nefyn & District
17.   St Enodoc
18.   Tilgate Forest
19.   Dunbar
20.   Glasson
21.   Cruden Bay
22.   Machrihanish
23.   Aberdovey
24.   York
25.   Stoneham
26.   Belleisle
27.   County Sligo (Rosses Point)
28.   Tralee
29.   St Andrews (New)
30.   Connemara
31.   Woodhall Spa
32.   Barton-on-Sea
33.   Hankley Common
34.   Prince’s
35.   Tramore
36.   Crieff
37.   Nairn
38.   The Hertfordshire
39.   Thorpe Wood
40.   Saunton (East)
41.   La Moye
42.   Broadstone
43.   Hillside
44.   Royal West Norfolk
45.   Westport
46.   Headport
47.   Crowborough Beacon
48.   Ladybank
49.   Pennard
50.   Pyle & Kenfig




Niall

[Ed Tilley]

Niall,

I have played B&Y. It is the other side of the estuary from Aberdovey. Very basic I seem to remember - a lot of very flat holes. Sean has done a tour below. The drive on the 2nd is the thing I remember most - sea wall, fairway, road and nothing else!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43575.msg944040.html#msg944040

Haven't played Llanymynech but this is famous for 2 things. Firstly for being Ian Woosnam's home course and secondly for one of the holes that tees off in England and putts out in Wales (or the other way round!).

Ed

[Niall C]

Thanks Ed, B&Y looks the type of course that appeals to me. Looks well worth a play.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

I would be interested to see a listing of courses by number of greenkeeping staff.


Not saying less or more is better or better value or whatever, but it would be interesting to see where the big names sit as against the gems and lessor courses which many posting herein hold so dear, me included, and how other factors, such as the type of terrain, can have an influence on the number of staff.


Atb

[Niall C]

Atb


I understand that Royal Dornoch with its two full size links courses employs 18 greenkeepers while Moray GC, also with two full size links courses, employs 6. The likes of Wick with its single course has one full time greenkeeper and whatever members are willing to help. It would be interesting to think how these courses were rated if there were a level playing field.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Niall,


Yes it would wouldn't it. Maybe not easy to define an objective measurement criteria but how much better would Moray be with 18 or how much worse would RD be with only 6? I guess one would have to be careful with short-term-ism and kneejerk reactions in relation to decline/improvement however, although a long-term analysis ought to suggest something.


The kind of thing all golf clubs (and all businneses/organisations inc gov'ts) should be reviewing constantly. Do we really need those flowerbeds, as an example, and the maintenance cost that comes with it. To paraphrase what was said on another thread and repeated by me elsewhere "it's not the golf that's expensive, it's everything else that goes on around it".


Atb

[Niall C]

In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

"In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year."

Niall -

I know you are not a big fan of Dornoch. But are you seriously suggesting that, if Old Moray had a larger grounds crew and was maintained to a higher standard, it would be considered by many authoritative sources to be one of the top 25 courses in the world?

DT   

[Niall C]

DT

Actually I am a fan of Dornoch but just don't rate it as high as others. As for "authoritative" sources I've already bumped heads with a few on here and frankly I suspect many are like sheep, which is why a lot of these ranking lists are self-perpetuating.

With regards the qualities of Moray, what brought it home to me was when I was up there this summer after a couple of years absence, was how good Moray was when in peak condition (I played in the week between the Moray Open and the Scottish Amateur Strokeplay). It was simply stunning, but it's a fact that it can't maintain that level of conditioning throughout the season as well as RD can which has 3 times as many greenstaff.

So when I say that I think Moray Old is as good if not better than RD, when Moray is in peak condition, I mean that as a compliment to Moray and not a slight on RD.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

DT

Actually I am a fan of Dornoch but just don't rate it as high as others. As for "authoritative" sources I've already bumped heads with a few on here and frankly I suspect many are like sheep, which is why a lot of these ranking lists are self-perpetuating.


Niall

Not only is it self perpetuating, when MOST rank and file travel up north they ONLY play Dornoch, along now with Castle Stuart and maybe Nairn so they aren't exposed to much else-thus further elevating the select few they play.


Ironically, many "second tier" courses got there because of their (perceived) lack of "championship" qualities, yet most of the time on the well knowns the tourists are herded forward to the front of visitors tees, and play a course far shorter (distancewise) than available at other courses slighted for their lack of scorecard length.
Not that there's anything wrong with golfers playing shorter courses, but often the "championship" length that keeps them "viable" is simply scorecard and not available to most.


One can be a fan of a course and still think it overrated.

[Niall C]

Jeff

That's pretty well what I mean about self-perpetuating rankings, you sum it up nicely.

To illustrate that point, on another thread I read someone say that Machrihanish certainly didn't have the best opening hole in Scotland and that Prestwicks 1st was definitely the best. It was a throw away line but it did occur to me that how qualified was that poster to make that statement ? Had he played more than a handful of the top courses in Scotland, bearing in mind you don't have to have a great course to have a great opening hole ? How many wonderful opening holes are there on fairly average courses that never get a mention on here.

As it happens I think modern big headed drivers have robbed the 1st at Machrihanish of much of its bite as it's simply too easy to get the ball airborne for Battery to scare you the way it used to. However off the top of my head I can think of one opener better than Prestwick (IMO) and that's Dornoch. And I don't say that to curry favour with DT. The first is simply a very good simple hole with any interesting green. Nothing dramatic required.

Niall 

[Jon Wiggett]

"In comparing RD to Moray, I'd suggest the difference between the two is RD is consistently at a higher level, conditioning wise, than Moray which only really hits the heights a few times a year."

Niall -

I know you are not a big fan of Dornoch. But are you seriously suggesting that, if Old Moray had a larger grounds crew and was maintained to a higher standard, it would be considered by many authoritative sources to be one of the top 25 courses in the world?

DT

David,

I think the point Niall is making is made when you flip your point. If you were to halve the number of greenkeepers at Dornoch do you really think it would drop out of the top 25? I do not. I personally think that the few extra greenkeepers only improve the presentation but have no effect on the actually quality of the playing surfaces and overall standard of the course. Is it worth that extra £100K to have the cutting lines crisp all the time. As links golf is about blending one area seamlessly into another I for one do not greet this Americanisation of the presentation of some of our top links courses nor the hike in the price that comes with it.

Jon

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