lmaginary UK links resort development

[Adrian_Stiff]

ATB - Adam's post was pretty spot on what actually happens in the UK.


Yes Askernish moved to Fife, Southampton, Bristol, Leeds, Birmingham would make a fortune, but it is'nt.


Very few people drive more than 30 minutes to play once a week golf, ie where they are a member. So even if there was something really special it would be hard to attract regulars at 1 hour drive time, but you would get some that figured they would play 20-25 rounds.


Any NEW fantastic course would have to be remote(ish) though there makes sense if you can settle it within a cluster of other remotes. Hence Mr Keiser's new project near Dornoch. Groups of three courses are probably best there is a big market in the 2 night stay/ 3 rounds of golf market. There is a cracking course in Poland that Tony Ristola designed called Sand Valley, I have tried to get people to go but whilst they like the look of Sand valley they want to tick off three courses rather than play one three times and that's quite a strong pattern with how people book.

[Thomas Dai]

David and Adrian,


Some of these are the very examples I had in my mind but didn't want to mention and the 20-min 'rule' is also very much part of my attempted reasoning. Rosapenna and the nextdoor St Patricks development as well, especially given how far away from small size airports Rosapenna is.


Interesting mention of Mac Dunes earlier. That was an example I was thinking of too. Relatively remote that Mac Dunes is though, it is immediately adjacent to RAF Macrihanish, which is also Cambeltown Airport and in conjunction with Flybe/Loganair there are deals/trips for fly-golf-fly packages available (there might be for Askernish too, not sure though).


Airports and golf?


When I was at Royal County Down earlier in the year there was a helicopter there who had brought some golfers to RCD. Where were the golfers staying? Turnberry apparently! I wonder where else they were flying to? I've seen windsocks at Carne and Ballyliffin too and know folk who have flown into both Dornoch and Nairn. Where else I wonder?


Golf and flying?


There are some great areas of links land on the west coast of the UK, some MoD related, in places such as northwest Wales, western Dumfries and Galloway, southern Cumbria but it's the old location, location, location argument, hence the three questions I raised above. Some of these locations have runways though, and enough space for multiple courses. But is there a UK market for fly-in, stay-n-play low spec 'rugged' golf, on golf courses built in conjunction with the environmental bodies not in opposition to them.......the what I might term the "golf can help the environment approach".


There are some potential locations however, that combine a few key elements, such as Leuchars which covers a massive sandy area and is across the river from Golf City, UK, or the Budden ranges at Carnoustie, which also, cover a huge area. In N Ireland there is the Ballykinler base 15 minutes from Royal County Down, and there are some holes laid out at Ballyk' already...the forces do like their golf, in fact the MoD owns circa 10-20 golf courses throughout the UK and most former overseas bases had there own on-site courses. Times change though, and the Gov't is pretty keen to cut down on MoD expenditure........


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

David and Adrian,


Some of these are the very examples I had in my mind but didn't want to mention and the 20-min 'rule' is also very much part of my attempted reasonomg. Rosapenna and the nextdoor St Patricks development as well, especially given how far away from small size airports Rosapenna is.


Interesting mention Mac Dunes earlier. That was an example I was thinking of too. Mac Dunes is immediately adjacent to RAF Macrihanish, and is also Cambeltown Airport.


Airports and golf?


There are some great areas of links land on the west coast of the UK, some MoD related, in places such as northwest Wales, western Dumfries and Galloway, southern Cumbria but it's the old location, location, location argument, hence the three questions I raised above. Some of these locations have runways though, and enough space for multiple courses. But is there a UK market for fly-in, stay-n-play low spec 'rugged' golf, golf courses built in conjunction with the environmental bodies not in opposition to them.......what I might term the "golf can help the environment approach".


There are some potential locations however, that combine a few key elements, such as Leuchars which covers a massive sandy area and is across the river from Golf City, UK, or the Budden ranges at Carnoustie, which also, cover a huge area. In N Ireland there is the Ballykinler base 15 minutes from Royal County Down, and there are some holes laid out at Ballyk' already...the forces do like their golf, in fact the MoD owns circa 10-20 golf courses throughout the UK and most former overseas bases had there own on-site courses. Times change though, and the Gov't is keen to cut down on MoD expenditure.


Atb

That land at Leuchars was for sale a few years back it was 480 acres from memory and very inexpensive, the advert said you could do nothing with it though. I know what i'd do to ease that problem but it would be a long process, but I am still not convinced that area needs another. There is another one due to Open near St Andrews shortly, looked nice from the road.

[David_Tepper]

Thomas D. -

Regarding remote golf course & airports, I believe there is a landing strip near the Sand Hills course in Nebraska that can accommodate a Gulfstream or two. 

But remember, that is a club not a pay for play course.

DT 

[Sean_A]

Very few people drive more than 30 minutes to play once a week golf, ie where they are a member. So even if there was something really special it would be hard to attract regulars at 1 hour drive time, but you would get some that figured they would play 20-25 rounds.


Adrian

I don't think you are right about this.  There are a good handful of links clubs I think would work on an American basis with a relatively small country/international membership and highish dues with few visitors allowed and no local members.  Golfers wouldn't play nearly every week, but 10-12 times a year....its not that much different for places like Sandwich and I think Dornoch would do fine without local members.  Its just that this was never the model in the UK...doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked for the right place.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

The only way I can see this working is to be close to where Americans play already, the model just doesn't work with Brits. Many fine seaside links courses can be joined fairly easily and cheaply as country members so I cannot see the appeal of a high end pay'no play.

As an aside any idea of the percentage of full paying visitors at CS and Kingsbarns who are British?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Very few people drive more than 30 minutes to play once a week golf, ie where they are a member. So even if there was something really special it would be hard to attract regulars at 1 hour drive time, but you would get some that figured they would play 20-25 rounds.


Adrian

I don't think you are right about this.  There are a good handful of links clubs I think would work on an American basis with a relatively small country/international membership and highish dues with few visitors allowed and no local members.  Golfers wouldn't play nearly every week, but 10-12 times a year....its not that much different for places like Sandwich and I think Dornoch would do fine without local members.  Its just that this was never the model in the UK...doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked for the right place.

Ciao

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? You said no but then went on to say exactly what I said? Handful? I said not many?

[Thomas Dai]

.......There is another one due to Open near St Andrews shortly, looked nice from the road.....

Would this be the development just south of St A on the road to Leven? The one with the Tom Weiskopf involvement? In land course with hotel etc.


Can't see why folks would want to travel to St A and play inland golf, even as part of a trip also including links. Each to their own though.


Changing area to the SE, I wonder how the re-developed Princes is doing with their on-site lodging etc and as Mark enquires it would be interesting to know how many Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, plus Trump Aberdeen, Mac Dunes etc players (and at CS and MD on-site stayers) are Brits.


Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

.......There is another one due to Open near St Andrews shortly, looked nice from the road.....

Would this be the development just south of St A on the road to Leven? The one with the Tom Weiskopf involvement? In land course with hotel etc.


Can't see why folks would want to travel to St A and play inland golf, even as part of a trip also including links. Each to their own though.

Atb

Feddinch, otherwise known as St Andrews International. Biz model was US style private with extremely high joining fee, believed around 200k.


Last I heard, and this was over a year ago, the contractors were off site over a payment dispute. I will make inquiries.


Personally I do not believe this project can work. That sort of high end club can do well in the London area, where there are lots of people who have lots of money and are time poor, as Wisley and Queenwood have proved, and Beaverbrook is reinforcing. But who is going to pay that sort of money to belong to a club in St Andrews that can't even get them on the Old course?

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Adam,
Like you I have doubts this kind of project will work given the location and not being by the seaside. There's the Stonehaven-Ury-Nicklaus development too. Keiser-Embo would seem more likely to be successful I would suggest.
atb

[Adam Lawrence]

Thanks Adam,
Like you I have doubts this kind of project will work given the location and not being by the seaside. There's the Stonehaven-Ury-Nicklaus development too. Keiser-Embo would seem more likely to be successful I would suggest.
atb

High end pay and play is a proven market in Scotland. But a super high end members' club? I suppose Loch Lomond does ok, but I'd rather own Kingsbarns myself

[David_Tepper]

"High end pay and play is a proven market in Scotland. But a super high end members' club? I suppose Loch Lomond does ok, but I'd rather own Kingsbarns myself"

Adam L. -

Isn't the Renaissance Club relatively high end? What about Archerfield?

DT

[Adam Lawrence]

"High end pay and play is a proven market in Scotland. But a super high end members' club? I suppose Loch Lomond does ok, but I'd rather own Kingsbarns myself"

Adam L. -

Isn't the Renaissance Club relatively high end? What about Archerfield?

DT

Is Renaissance succeeding financially? I won't share what Jerry Sarvadi told me about their numbers last year, but IMO it has at least a way to go to prove itself on that score. In any case it is a fair bit closer to the wealth of Edinburgh than St Andrews is. And I will be happily surprised if Feddinch, a course being built on clay farmland, not sandy ground close to the water, turns out to be as good a course as Renaissance

[Mark Chaplin]

The advantage Renaissance and Acherfield have is a great golfing area but local clubs that are very difficult to join, in order HCEG, Luffness New, North Berwick and Gullane. Like Queenwood and Wisley in London a large cheque gets you into these clubs.