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Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 12:10:39 PM »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 01:48:42 PM »
Help me out
$12.6 million to renovate an existing course?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 02:27:44 PM »
Expectations:  Mediocrity with big white bunkers.


$12 million is about half of what Harding Park paid to renovate an existing course.
 
Cart pats just over $1 million. 
A new state of the art irrigation system probably $1 to $2 million. 
Sand capping maybe $1 million. 
Weiskopks fee easily $1 million. 
Wadworth in the same vicinity.






   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 05:05:53 PM »
Help me out
$12.6 million to renovate an existing course?


It's a city job in a unionized town.  You've got to pay one guy $35 an hour to dig a ditch, another to glue pipe, a third to put the pipe in the ditch, and a fourth guy to fill the ditch back in [different equipment = different operator] ... and you've got to pay them while they stand around watching the other guys take their turn.  So the irrigation system will be $2.5 million, instead of $1.5 million, and so on.


I'm trying to figure out how we could make that NOT the case at Sharp Park.  We had a lot of the same issues at Medinah, and somehow managed to rebuild the whole course there for about half of what they're talking at Torrey Pines.  But, we weren't in California.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 05:08:01 PM by Tom_Doak »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2015, 07:10:35 PM »
Shouldn't that be "unrealistic expectations are premeditated disappointments?"

Expectations?
Have you not heard the old quote? 
Expectations are premeditated disappointments.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2015, 08:35:45 PM »
The City is in love with the continuous concrete cart path, they got one for the South Course. It played a big part in getting the Kikuyu fairways in shape for the 2008 Open, as carts were path only for at least 6 months. Hard to believe such a wirey grass hates cart traffic. They put one in at Balboa Park so they can send players out, cart path only on the 20-30 rain days we have each year. How long will it take to male back the $1MM on that deal? They want one on the North and will get it in this deal.


 They desperately want USGA greens and will get that too, too bad they have a great set of greens on the North but are determined to blow them up for ease of maintenance



The bunkers have morphed into puddles of sand and did need to be rebuilt, it makes sense to move hem out a bit to challenge Tour Pros for 2 days each year.


Reducing turf there is a no brainier but if done on the cheap could come out poorly, this is where the project will pass or fail.


Although the course is more popular with the Ladies Club it is brutally long for women at 5,800, a new set of tees around 5,000 would be welcome.


 Pretty hard to hit a home run here, perhaps we should just hope for an up the gap double.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 08:37:40 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Gary Sato

Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015, 11:24:49 AM »



 Pretty hard to hit a home run here, perhaps we should just hope for an up the gap double.

Good point. The problem is most architects are happy with a double when others especially Bill Coore are always trying for a home run.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2015, 04:34:51 PM »
Curious if anybody in the know might have an idea of how Mickelson's plans differed to this one.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 05:56:37 PM »
I'd be curious if either one has submitted "plans"! Phil presented three conceptual drawings showing what he might do if the project was awarded to his firm. After the two biggest golf construction companies bid $17 and $18 MM the City basically said "what can you do for us for $12MM; I doubt that process involved submitting detailed plans. Since the budget is so tight  ::) , they will be rebuilding all greens to USGS specs, leveling existing tees and building some new ones. They will be redoing all bunkers, probably positioning them further down the fairway as most are now situated around 250 yards off the back tees. Phil was the one who pioneered removing out of the way turf and replacing it with a landscape similar to the adjacent canyons. That basically means ripping out the grass, spreading decomposed granite and then planting some coastal sage shrubs. Apparently Weiskopf plans to do the same thing. I couldn't find anything on the City's website showing what exactly will be done.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 11:15:01 PM »
What should be done by my thoughts:

1. Move the fairway bunkers down 40-50 yards. Not in play for me, let alone tour pros who carry the ball 40 yards farther. Raise the green 5 feet and create a horizon to the ocean.
2. Shift the fairway left 10-15 yards and expand the fairway bunker. Would eliminate some of the hackers slicing their ball into players hitting their third shot into 1.

3. Remove the left bunker and expand the green to the edge of the canyon. It would add some pinnable locations to a green that gets a ton of ball marks because it's a wedge for everyone.
4. Shift the fairway left to bring the canyon into play. Expand and move the fairway bunker down. Possible: add a "Farmers Insurance" tee near the 3rd tee (not in play for the public, would create slow play issues), which would create a dogleg left Cape hole with an intimidating tee shot.
5. Better define the landing area by expanding the right hand bunker rather than the out of play circle there now. Flatten the green to allow more pinnable locations (very steep now.)
6. Nothing, except perhaps slightly flattening the green and/or shifting it slightly left.
7. Potential to be a great hole. Flatten the tee box, it's somewhat uneven. Shift the fairway left to actually bring the canyon in to play for more than a violent snap hook. Flatten the fairway slightly. Push the green up the hill 20-25 yards, if possible. Turns a tough hole into a memorable beast.
8. Move the fairway bunker down 25-30 yards. Widen the fairway to 45-50 yards from the current 25 yards most of the way.
9. Add some fairway bunkers to make the tee shot tougher, it's too easy now for a reachable par 5. It's too short for the pros right now as a 5 but that is ok, it's a 4.5 for them and a 5 for the rest of us.
10. Widen the fairway 10 paces. Otherwise, a good par 4 typically into the wind.
11. Move the fairway bunker down 40 yards or add a second and third fairway bunker on the right. Right now, there is not enough of a penalty for bailing out away from the canyon.
12. Nothing, except maybe raising the area right of the green and putting the back tee into play more often. Would play well as a 220 yard par 3 requiring a running draw rather than the 5-7 iron right now.
13. Nothing. One of the few holes where the fairway bunkers are correctly placed based on the proper teeing grounds for the player.
14. See #9, tee shot is uninteresting for a reachable par 5 and the bunkers are not in play for the proper tee. Deepen the greenside bunkers to penalize the errant approach in 2.
15. Fairway bunker needs to be repositioned, otherwise no changes. Not much room for 15 & 16 to make many changes.
16. Shorten to 315 from back and 280-290 from white. Right now it's a very indifferent 3 wood sand wedge with no reason for anything else. Add a top-shot bunker 40-50 yards short of the green. Remove the current bunker, it's useless and not in play.
17. Expand the green to include some pin locations which bring the water into play. A somewhat dull par 3 but as with 15 & 16 there is not much space to work with.
18. Build up the hill at the start of the fairway 5-10' to create a true blind/Alps tee shot. The 2nd/3rd shot is very anticlimactic but this probably the flattest spot on the golf course. Perhaps add some fairway bunkers in the layup area to make the eye wander.


I personally think the North could be a spectacular golf course with a few touches. Right now it feels like unused potential, I very much enjoy playing there but always think of new things to do.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 01:10:19 PM »
Phillip- here's what I wrote nearly 4 years ago. Many similar thoughts


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50980.msg1162736.html#msg1162736




For fun, I also decided to sketch it out. Yardages here- sketch in link (since I can't figure out how to resize the damn thing).







http://i.imgur.com/qWaRP.jpg

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 05:03:02 PM »
Alex,


I would play that. It looks great!  ;D
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 05:44:38 PM »
Alex,


I would play that. It looks great!  ;D

I'd agree,

I really love your idea for #2 by pushing that green site up against the barranca and making that wedge approach borderline terrifying into a shallow green.  Yes the tee shot on 3 is a bit diminished, but worth the tradeoff.

Also really liked what you proposed for 5, 11, and 16 as well as the dual fairway on 9 and 10.

Thanks,

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 06:11:52 PM »
Thanks guys,


I played TP North a good amount '08-'12 while in school down the road. I'm secretly (or not so much on a public forum) hoping that some of my ideas get stolen and incorporated. I'm sure many have been thought of already, but I would also love to play my TP North.  ;D




Btw, the dual 9/10 fairway would also be easily used as a driving range (as that space was in 2008) when the US Open returns in 2021.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 06:39:15 PM by Alex Miller »

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf and Torrey Pines North Redesign
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2015, 01:04:34 PM »
That 5th hole looks fantastic.




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