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Steve Lapper

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Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2015, 07:09:27 AM »

A golf course architect of some renown told me the panel of Golf Magazine, by far the most accomplished group you could ever hope to find, wasn't killing itself to beat a path to course openings.  In that context the larger group for Golf Digest makes sense. 




John,


  On the above point, your "renown architect" misled you. Perhaps he was "conflicted?"

  A core group of at least 10-20 GM Panelists (remember that's 10-20% of the entire panel!) consistently travel around the globe to see courses they believe may well fall into the Top 200. No doubt at least half of this group does so in order to stay current to their goal of having played The World's Top 100, but theirs is an increasing number just desirous to see heralded new venues.  A prime example would be the number of panelists that have already gotten to Cabot Cliffs (not even eligible for the 2015 list), the number planning upcoming trips to King Island, Tara Iti, and Saint Emillionnais, Forest Dune, Sand Valley and elsewhere. Remember that GM focuses on the world and recognizes that the US, while golf rich, is consistently picked over by well over 2000 "other paying" raters.

Mark, B,


   I believe GM Mag is watching and has decided, for now, to not charge their panelists even a Lincoln penny. Surely, many of their panelists laud Joe Passov and David Clarke for that decision. Of course, that could change, but they'd have to issue current cards first! :)


Lastly to David M' point: "I have no idea how you think a bunch of rankers visiting a course that will never be realistically be ranked benefits the "uneducated masses" since they will never see or understand those rankings."  I'd love to share the following:

Earlier this fall, Paramount CC (a club in which I am one of the managing partners) held a GW rater's day. I believe we barely made their Top 200 at last look and we have no illusions to believe we belong at best anywhere inside the Top 100-140 of anyone's list. Frankly, in one of the most architectually rich and competitive sections, post our JC Urbina restoration, we are pleased as punch to be at least part of the conversation and recognized for being a nice under-the-radar gem. Our rating aspirations won't ever change.

Why then did we seek out GW to host a day? We did it so that some of their raters, and Brad, could see, play and enjoy how proud we were to create this gem. We did it so that when these raters visit the likes of a Ridgewood, Bethpage, Quaker Ridge, WF, or Baltusrol, they could see what AWT was able to create on a much smaller scale. We didn't and don't expect a higher rating, but instead wanted only to be part of a conversation (and said as much to this crowd...that's all! Yes, we don't expect any press or fanfare for this, but concurrently wouldn't at all be unhappy if, by word-of-mouth, some of the "uneducated masses" find us or have an interest in joining.


Cheers!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 07:27:18 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2015, 11:47:55 AM »

A golf course architect of some renown told me the panel of Golf Magazine, by far the most accomplished group you could ever hope to find, wasn't killing itself to beat a path to course openings. 

I'm not sure if you're quoting this correctly but this is basically false. This year they all beat a path to Cabot and for 2016 they are going to Tara Iti and Kings Island.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2015, 12:22:45 PM »

A golf course architect of some renown told me the panel of Golf Magazine, by far the most accomplished group you could ever hope to find, wasn't killing itself to beat a path to course openings. 

I'm not sure if you're quoting this correctly but this is basically false. This year they all beat a path to Cabot and for 2016 they are going to Tara Iti and Kings Island.


Are these planned Golf Magazine "outings" or are you saying individuals are planning on going and you happen to know those plans?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2015, 12:45:02 PM »
The first requirement of being a Golf Magazine panelists is that you don't need to be a Golf Magazine panelists. Everyone of those guys can play any course in the world on their own merits. Why else do you think the members names are published by the magazine?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2015, 12:59:09 PM »
Steve,  I understand your desire to show off Paramount and make it part of the conversation, but it seems that the actual readers are entirely left out of this conversation. If Paramount is truly not going to make any waves ranking-wise then the readers will never be aware of the good work you have done regardless of the number of raters who see the course. It seems incongruous that the best a magazine rating can offer you is "word of mouth" exposure.

I would think that an accessible substantive review by a respected critic would place Paramount much more in the conversation.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2015, 02:03:14 PM »
I was talking to a buddy of mine that is a head professional at a golf club near me about this subject last night. He tells me that raters are the scum suckers of the golf world and that they are looked upon by head pros as a bunch of leaches. If that is the case , then why don't the club professionals turn down every request. If the people on here say that the big clubs know how good they are and they don't need any magazine to tell them that, Then turn down all requests and the magazines will stop doing the rating system and it wont matter . If the club drops from 20 in the U.S. to 150 , then who cares.I have a feeling that in this ego driven - do you know who I am - or what club I belong world,  that they do care. I would think , and I am only guessing, that its like the sports world . If you are not winning now - your job is not going to last long. If the club drops out of the rankings or the club jumps in the rankings - it could lead to having your job for a long time or you will be looking for a job soon.
 

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2015, 03:39:51 PM »
 :o , I say. I am shocked—shocked—to find the fraud that is going on in here!   What would you think if you knew the restaurant reviewer for you local "Daily Times Journal" walked into restaurants and said, "I'm hungry, and I also write restaurant reviews for the "Daily Times Journal."  May I have a free meal?"  Same thing.  I am by nature a very naive and trusting person.  I have to force the cynic.  Before I got involved with this website I had assumed that golf magazine golf course rankings were unbiased, objective, etc.  Of course now I know better and pay no attention to the rankings, although since I don't subscribe to golf magazines any more I see them infrequently.  These golf course raters are like my hypothetical hungry newspaper reporter -- just looking for a free meal.  Now, not all raters may be that hungry, but they do participate in the system, and therefore contribute to the fraud, although a fraud of much lesser consequence than many, many others.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2015, 03:57:16 PM »
Carl,


  An occasionally blemished qualitative exercise....yes...A "fraud," hardly.


Rob,


   Your buddy represents some minute set of golf pros, certainly not a majority, and I don't know of, or have ever heard of any whose job security rested on their club's ratings. I call BS on this convoluted logic.


David,


   You are right in that absent any substantive review, the readers in general won't likely know of a place. That said, in the NY-NJ-CT Metro area, many of the raters are admired, respected or influential amongst their peers and that's good enough for us.


John,


  Publishing our names is not something we have a say over or have historically cared much about. Only Ran asks every year so he can see his names in lights on Broadway when they run through them at 4am in Times Square on the coldest day of the year! ;D


Keith,


   Only rarely--maybe once every other year--are there any kind of organized (and loosely at best) GM outings. When these occur, they are usually attended by 10 or fewer people at most. Actually, GM Panelists are better known for occasionally traveling in small hunter-killer packs and eating only raw Korean BBQ or Fugo fish...it explains our high turnover....let's be sure to keep those well-fueled rumors afloat!






« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 03:59:03 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2015, 04:29:17 PM »
Steve,


I wish every publication would publish the names of their raters. Golfweek used to publish where they were holding their mandatory rater outings and who was attending but quit when I started to give them grief. That one backfired on me because I loved the information.


I wonder if Golfweek still distributes those sandwich board style bag tags that can't be missed. One of my favorite rater experiences was waiting for a tee time at Santa Anita as a proud rater displayed his tag positioned just right for everyone to see. Women swooned, and I thought it was just me until the chorus of Angels kept averting my glance.  I love a good wake up call.

BCowan

Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2015, 04:40:52 PM »
I wonder if Golfweek still distributes those sandwich board style bag tags that can't be missed. One of my favorite rater experiences was waiting for a tee time at Santa Anita as a proud rater displayed his tag positioned just right for everyone to see. Women swooned, and I thought it was just me until the chorus of Angels kept averting my glance.  I love a good wake up call.

 ;D ;D ;D
Where do you come up with these lines?  You should do a book focusing on ma and pa courses, it should have a title on each side of the book.  one side ''It takes patience to be a happy golfer''  the other side  ''Courses where Rake N Runners seldom play''

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2015, 04:46:32 PM »
I suspect his best lines have their roots in distilled grain.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #111 on: December 12, 2015, 05:45:15 PM »

A golf course architect of some renown told me the panel of Golf Magazine, by far the most accomplished group you could ever hope to find, wasn't killing itself to beat a path to course openings. 

I'm not sure if you're quoting this correctly but this is basically false. This year they all beat a path to Cabot and for 2016 they are going to Tara Iti and Kings Island.


I don't know if John was referring to me in his earlier post; I don't remember speaking with him on the subject.  However, the rebuttals printed above are pretty weak. 


If you are only going to Cabot and Tara Iti and King Island, and maybe somewhere in Asia where they have asked for panelists to visit, objectivity is already in question.  [Having played Cabot Cliffs with Ran this summer, I felt the condition of the front nine was pretty rough for a bunch of people to make up their minds about it ... unless they had already decided to give it the benefit of the doubt.]  Just because these are widely considered the "most likely new candidates" for the world top 100 does not mean they are the only courses worth seeing.  I saw 100 new courses this year myself, and the only GOLF Magazine panelists I bumped into were Ran and Ben, at Cabot, and Hal Phillips in Maine, who'd just been to Cabot.


I have pretty much given up on the rankings process because I believe most of the panelists are easily influenced:  by discussions with other panelists, by outside influences and preferential treatment, and by the people who run each of the rankings, who may also be influenced by those other factors.  I played that game a bit for many years -- as most architects do -- but finally decided that I do not wish to base my reputation on its results.  I am guessing that may cost some of my courses some points in the rankings, which will only reinforce my point.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2015, 06:35:28 PM »
Ben,

Thanks, maybe I'll write a reversible book. Guaranteed to be epic, just ask me. Can you cover my attorney fees?

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2015, 06:43:57 PM »
Do most clubs comp raters?  Should they?

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2015, 06:47:24 PM »
Do most clubs comp raters?  Should they?


No and no.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2015, 06:53:46 PM »
Do most clubs comp raters?  Should they?


Jim,


Last time I saw "The Book" Golfweek had 1,700 courses comp eligible. So only about 10% of the courses in the country comp raters. That means 90% don't!!!

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2015, 09:45:08 PM »
Do any of the top clubs in the US comp raters?  Which ones?
What is the point of paying a fee except for free access?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2015, 12:30:33 AM »
Do any of the top clubs in the US comp raters?  Which ones?
What is the point of paying a fee except for free access?


Jim,


Seriously?!, what about 1,700 courses don't you understand? Of the Golfweek top 100 modern 98 comp raters, of the top 100 classic only 94 comp raters. Is it worth $250 yet?  Sign up bud, it's an utopian metaphor that can't last. It's the best deal going.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #118 on: December 13, 2015, 07:54:22 AM »
Do any of the top clubs in the US comp raters?  Which ones?
What is the point of paying a fee except for free access?


Jim,


Seriously?!, what about 1,700 courses don't you understand? Of the Golfweek top 100 modern 98 comp raters, of the top 100 classic only 94 comp raters. Is it worth $250 yet?  Sign up bud, it's an utopian metaphor that can't last. It's the best deal going.

It seems that this is the cover story for the next issue.

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2015, 09:00:54 AM »
 After reading this long thread, some thoughts from a non-rater:

 
How accurate are the rankings from a statistical/survey methodology standpoint?  (Seem to be more of a political / opinion process amongst pretty much the same set of courses every time)

 
Does the general magazine readership really care about the current rankings? (Most readers never play most of the courses rated, nor could they if they so desired)

 
I suspect that rating matters only to members of the courses rated, and a handful of architecture nerds.  A somewhat silly bragging contest?

 
A course should allocate a fixed number of rounds to the magazine for rating purposes and the magazine should designate raters (even a lottery for raters willing to play, perhaps?)

 
The focus should on reviewing a larger sample of courses, rather than periodically re-arranging the rank order of a small number.

 
Why is “Confidential Guide” more interesting/respected that magazine ratings?  (there are good reasons...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2015, 09:01:29 AM »
John and Jeff, I thought I knew the answer. but I wanted to shine some light on it.  It seems we went 6 pages without focusing on the real issue--at least as I see it.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2015, 09:56:59 AM »
Jim,
The real answer is:  it is just another example of the golf industry using the game.   The magazines saw they could charge and so they did.  As long as clubs and courses are willing to allow such it will continue.   I don't know of another industry that functions like golf.  Good solid business people will buy a stock in a golf grip company becuase they like the grip and want to say they own a golf stock.  It's really a weird phenom...

And in the end...I'm not sure the rankings adhere to the rater polls anyway.  If a large resort is buying twice the ads of some place that ranked much higher then adjustments will be made I would wager.  It's just business and the actual individual rater doesn't care and doesn't need to know...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2015, 10:30:17 AM »
Jim,
The real answer is:  it is just another example of the golf industry using the game.   The magazines saw they could charge and so they did.  As long as clubs and courses are willing to allow such it will continue.   I don't know of another industry that functions like golf.  Good solid business people will buy a stock in a golf grip company becuase they like the grip and want to say they own a golf stock.  It's really a weird phenom...

And in the end...I'm not sure the rankings adhere to the rater polls anyway.  If a large resort is buying twice the ads of some place that ranked much higher then adjustments will be made I would wager.  It's just business and the actual individual rater doesn't care and doesn't need to know...

Mike, what type of adjustment? Are you saying raters will rate the course higher because they see it is buying ad space? Or are you saying that the administrator of the list will just move a club higher if it buys the space?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2015, 10:43:04 AM »
And in the end...I'm not sure the rankings adhere to the rater polls anyway.  If a large resort is buying twice the ads of some place that ranked much higher then adjustments will be made I would wager.  It's just business and the actual individual rater doesn't care and doesn't need to know...


If a ranking has my name attached, then they have borrowed my credibility in compiling it, and I care whether the published results are fudged.  Every panelist should care.  Most do, but some look the other way at behaviors they would never engage in themselves.


I don't have any specific knowledge that any of the rankings are fudged, although I have heard stories about the last few spots, from people that might know.  I DO have specific knowledge that two national magazines let advertisers affect what's printed, because I have been specifically asked to edit my writing so as not to offend a particular advertiser.  [I've also had my words edited without my permission, so as to appease them.]  In one case, I withdrew from writing said article.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GD-New Pimp Daddy
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2015, 10:46:50 AM »
John and Jeff, I thought I knew the answer. but I wanted to shine some light on it.  It seems we went 6 pages without focusing on the real issue--at least as I see it.


Jim,


Would you then say that GW was the Old Pimp Daddy?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"