What The Devil Is Going On With Modern Inland GB&I Courses?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - You are arguing about Agronomy which you don't know much about. You argued with me that Painswick was wet. Painswick is not wet, Painswick is muddy and it is muddy from worm casts that they are not allowed to control because of the lands designation. 


Huntercombe has great soil and subsoil. I am building a course a few miles away at the moment, I expect it is a very sandy soil scattered with flint shingle, so not unlike what we look for in a USGA construction. Thw landowner was a member of Huntercombe for many years and intimate with the soil structures of South Oxfordshire.


I doubt very much Huntercombe has much installed drainage at all. Greens and bunkers excepting,  I doubt that they have installed drainage bands at 10 metre centres. Nature allows perfect percolation.


To re-iterate.........it's all about the SOIL.

[Ben Stephens]

Sean,

I believe that a good winter course it is more dependable on the type of soil to drain and type of grasses to absorb the moisture than having drainage pipes all over to drain water out.

An example of having so much drainage installed but a poor playing surface in the winter is the Celtic Manor Twenty Ten course which is like a swamp in the winter and spring months mainly due to the reddish clay soil substructure which covers most of South Wales.

I rather play Luffenham Heath in the winter to my club Rutland Water as it is a better winter course.

Jon

The simple matter of fact is golf is a 12 month game in Britain...see the Huntercombe thread as testament to this fact.  Because some courses can't cope doesn't change this fact.  Because some course were shortsighted doesn't change this fact.  Because some courses never had the money to do much about drainage doesn't change this fact.  Clubs open their doors and a lot of people play on all types of grasses all year round. Making that experience better makes sense to me. 

We shall have to agree to disagree that drainage work helps make a course more playable.  I have seen it work first hand, but nevermind 

Clubs should have socked away cash when the times were good.  The shortsighted approach of leaving the coffers empty is now a problem which directly impacts the quality of the product that is presented.  Clubs need to think in terms of 25 years, not the term of the Captain. If clubs don't change their attitude the gap between the have and have nots will grow and people will stay play 12 months a year.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I believe that a good winter course it is more dependable on the type of soil to drain and type of grasses to absorb the moisture than having drainage pipes all over to drain water out.

An example of having so much drainage installed but a poor playing surface in the winter is the Celtic Manor Twenty Ten course which is like a swamp in the winter and spring months mainly due to the reddish clay soil substructure which covers most of South Wales.

I rather play Luffenham Heath in the winter to my club Rutland Water as it is a better winter course.

Jon

The simple matter of fact is golf is a 12 month game in Britain...see the Huntercombe thread as testament to this fact.  Because some courses can't cope doesn't change this fact.  Because some course were shortsighted doesn't change this fact.  Because some courses never had the money to do much about drainage doesn't change this fact.  Clubs open their doors and a lot of people play on all types of grasses all year round. Making that experience better makes sense to me. 

We shall have to agree to disagree that drainage work helps make a course more playable.  I have seen it work first hand, but nevermind 

Clubs should have socked away cash when the times were good.  The shortsighted approach of leaving the coffers empty is now a problem which directly impacts the quality of the product that is presented.  Clubs need to think in terms of 25 years, not the term of the Captain. If clubs don't change their attitude the gap between the have and have nots will grow and people will stay play 12 months a year.

Ciao

I agree 100%, but that isn't the issue I raised.


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean you just used Huntercombe as the poster child of why a club should invest in drainage?

[Sean_A]

Sean you just used Huntercombe as the poster child of why a club should invest in drainage?

Adrian


I used Huntercombe as an example of golf being a 12 month sport in Britain. In the mad scramble to excuse clubs for failing to do what they can to provide a better playing experience, people are even failing to acknowledge that golf is a 12 month activity in Britain. Jeepers, its like I am speaking to a wall.  First, golf isn't a year round activity.  Then, its too rainy to bother improving consitions.  Then its too costly to even attempt to improve conditions. Every person responding this way knows very well that drainage does help, golf is a 12 month activity and many clubs could do something...especially over long term plan.  Its not like I am asking for blue cheese on the moon...though one would think I am suggesting something at least as crazy as that.  Eventually, it will come to pass that drainage will be the number 1 priority for a huge percentage of clubs....and that day is coming fast.  Those with their heads buried in the muck over this issue will pay dearly.     

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Following this thread it does strike me that you are being deliberately obtuse.  Adrian's point (and Jon's and others') is that bad soil cannot be completely rescued by drainage.  If you have clay soil even the most expensive drainage system (Ben's example of Celtic Manor is a good one) will not give good golf in a wet winter.  Good soil (Huntercombe seems like a good example) doesn't need expensive drainage to give good winter golf.  I imagine more drainage mitigates the full awfulness of clay soil a bit but it cannot be worth spending millions on drainage at a course on bad soil.  If only Melvyn were still here to lecture on land fit for purpose.

[Sean_A]

Mark

Don't be preposterous.  I never mentoned anything about millions    See my comments from previous posts.  I don't see where I have suggested anything unreasonable for people to be so defensive.  If you can't come to grips with the lines below we are in different worlds as to what I am saying.

IMO if  course is open in winter then it should be playable in winter.  Given GB&I has a 12 month golfing season, not being in decent nick in the winter is a major drawback directly effecting the fun factor...so of course that would effect my views on the quality of the course.

Sure, if I am paying 25 quid to play joe blow nowhere than fine...I give I loads a pass.  But I don't see why I shouldn't have very high expectations for a very highly ranked course in a 12 month golf cycle. 

Its one thing if extraordinary weather conditions are to blame and quite another if a poor piece of land was chosen and/or sufficient care was not taken for proper drainage.I fully accept that some courses are blessed with better soil than others...this is a big reason why those clubs are seen to have the best courses regardless of the design...conditions matter much more than the Tree House generally acknowledge.  And if a course in poor nick during winter...which is essentially November through April (half the year!)...that sort of disadvantage is hard to overlook when clubs charge green fees during this period.

However, if clubs are going to operate 12 months a year, they have to be willing to accept criticism 12 months a year.  It then shouldn't be a surprise if many of the newbies aren't well respected in the rankings.  My only thoughts were that given the sheer number of new courses and the knowledge that rankings are a great marketing tool...why haven't drainage issues been taken more seriously?

I don't exactly believe that most courses have done what they can to mitigate poor drainage.  Regardless, if a club is open and charging a fee, I am not terribly interested as to why the course is in crap condition.  That is my prerogative as the paying and discerning customer. Give me a decent product in line with the green fee and I won't carp. 

You are missing the point.  I am not saying that joe blow inland course should be as dry as a links...I am saying they could and should be dramatically improved over the long haul. 

And no, I don't turn up at joe blow inland course in winter expecting great conditions....I think you know this.  In fact, I avoid many places in winter because they overcharge given the quality of conditions in winter.

For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute. 

I never made any claims that drainage is a cure-all!  I only said that if a course is going to be open it should be playable and that a great many courses have not done what they can reasonably do to ease drainage issues. 

I fully understand that many courses cannot be a wonderful experience in winter, but given how long winter lasts....if a course is not playable for several months a year when it is charging a green fee...then I see no issue with giving the place a biff.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I totally agree that many inland courses should really be closed through the winter months or have their greenfees reflect the conditions on the course. I also agree that there are many examples of courses that are very playable in winter but to use them as a justification for calling golf an all year round sport in the UK is tenuous as claiming skiing is an all year round sport in Austria because they ski on the glaciers in the summer.

The 'a bit more drainage would solve all' point of view to the muddy conditions on many inland courses in the UK is akin to someone proposing that 'with a few more snow canons would keep the ski resorts open in the summer' and that even with 100F +. Yes, there are many options to ski in summer in the Alps but skiing is no more a summer sport there than golf is a winter sport here.

And once again, yes drainage does help with long term, general drainage but it does not help with muddy surface conditions. This has been explained to you by people who have relevant qualifications and experience in golf course maintenance as well as in some cases construction/renovation. I do wonder at your outright dismissal of their opinion rather than engaging in constructive discussion. You never know, they might even tell you something you do not already know.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Who and where are these courses charging high greenfees in unplayable conditions?

Sean it's like you've had your fingers burned and shelled out a lot of money for a winter game on a parkland bog, but I can't see you even putting your hands near that particular fire. Of course you're entitled to give a kicking if you've paid a reasonable greenfee, but which courses specifically are you referring to?

Seems to me as if your lecturing clubs and their members to spend their money which you yourself aren't prepared to spend.

A small % of courses are decent in the winter. The rest are effectively closed to visitors and only really open for the members to get a bit of exercise. This is the case for great swathes of the country.

Where are they heavy clay courses that do play well in the winter?

[Marc Haring]

I gave my opinions on poor winter conditions in reply 65 and finally Adrian has mentioned the main problem when citing Painswick as an example. My own course is not excessively wet. It has tremendous subsoil drainage in the clay and barely a flat spot on all 36 holes but it is now closed even though rainfall has been nowhere near exceptional and when opened it is pretty much unplayable. The problem on clay soils is not so much poor drainage, it is casting earthworms!


I know no one believes me but i'm telling you!!!!!!!!


Oh and Ryan. A heavy clay course that plays well in the winter; that would be Walton Heath.

[Ryan Coles]

Go on then Marc, explain how WH do it. And how they avoid Earth Worms. 

[Thomas Dai]

If it weren't for the modern generation of waterproof golf shoes and waterproof/windproof clothing I doubt many folk would even contemplate playing anything much more than very occasional golf during the UK winter period.......wet feet and socks and all that. Snooker in the clubhouse instead.
Atb

[Marc Haring]

Go on then Marc, explain how WH do it. And how they avoid Earth Worms.

Not sure but given the amount of heather on WH which is about as healthy as I have ever seen, I would say it is due to a very acid soil. Earthworms hate acid soils as it prevents them forming skeletal tissue. Heather of course will not exist on anything but acid soils.

[Ryan Coles]

The underlying chalk may help as well.

Difficult to reasonably use a course with 'Heath' in the title as a stick to beat Parkland's with.

[Marc Haring]

The underlying chalk may help as well.

Difficult to reasonably use a course with 'Heath' in the title as a stick to beat Parkland's with.

You're right Ryan. Of course chalk should make it alkaline but for some bizarre reason it does not at WH.


Earthworms are the problem though. I have seen the massive change that spraying brings about.

[Duncan Cheslett]

A small % of courses are decent in the winter. The rest are effectively closed to visitors and only really open for the members to get a bit of exercise. This is the case for great swathes of the country

Exactly.

Golf isn't a 12 month sport in the UK for most people. Away from links and heathland courses most members don't even play in the winter, never mind visitors.

Those members that do play through the winter generally accept that tee mats together with preferred lies, fairway mats, or dropping in the semi rough are essential strategies for protecting the course.

Incidentally, I had a long chat the other day with our Head Greenkeeper who said that if we got rid of all the trees on the course it would help with wet conditions no end. Many of the original drains have been damaged or blocked by tree roots.

Does this ring true?

[Marc Haring]

A small % of courses are decent in the winter. The rest are effectively closed to visitors and only really open for the members to get a bit of exercise. This is the case for great swathes of the country

Exactly.

Golf isn't a 12 month sport in the UK for most people. Away from links and heathland courses most members don't even play in the winter, never mind visitors.

Those members that do play through the winter generally accept that tee mats together with preferred lies, fairway mats, or dropping in the semi rough are essential strategies for protecting the course.

Incidentally, I had a long chat the other day with our Head Greenkeeper who said that if we got rid of all the trees on the course it would help with wet conditions no end. Many of the original drains have been damaged or blocked by tree roots.

Does this ring true?

It does with the old clay tile drains Duncan. I have dug up such old drains where the tree roots have followed inside the drain for 20 meters rendering them useless. Plastic perforated ones and the roots have no point of entry.

[Sam Krume]

I think the best inland winter course I've played is Epsom, no question. No drainage needed as on chalk...its tremendous.

[Thomas Dai]

A small % of courses are decent in the winter. The rest are effectively closed to visitors and only really open for the members to get a bit of exercise. This is the case for great swathes of the country

Exactly.
Golf isn't a 12 month sport in the UK for most people. Away from links and heathland courses most members don't even play in the winter, never mind visitors.
Those members that do play through the winter generally accept that tee mats together with preferred lies, fairway mats, or dropping in the semi rough are essential strategies for protecting the course.
Incidentally, I had a long chat the other day with our Head Greenkeeper who said that if we got rid of all the trees on the course it would help with wet conditions no end. Many of the original drains have been damaged or blocked by tree roots.
Does this ring true?

It does with the old clay tile drains Duncan. I have dug up such old drains where the tree roots have followed inside the drain for 20 meters rendering them useless. Plastic perforated ones and the roots have no point of entry.

Another reason to remove trees! Yippee! Improves the water flow through old drains, less tree roots to damage mowers and clubs, no pesky leaves to remove annually, increase sunlight and drying winds over the course and..............make the course safer with clearer lines of sight so that players are aware of others on the course.
 
Atb